I ran over the following quote at Charkbait, a very respectable SW bunch in SoCal:
"Early speculation that braided lines would cut or groove rod guides has been proven to be totally unfounded and without merit. ...."
[www.charkbait.com]

Very interesting comment there. I've been using spectra for many years now, but only with ceramic guides. Low end ceramic guides at that. Never saw any grooving on mine. And frankly, I've never seen any guide cut by spectra up close and personal. Now I am wondering if I had any good reason to worry at all.

Jerry Brown is THE long range spectra now, BTW.

The guides may not groove, but id rather have a harder, lighter and smoother guide on a rod when a fish is peeling line with braid or mono.

Ummm wasnt it kevlar that casued grooving thats why they stopped using it it in alot of lines?

Henry, the original Spiderwire was the one that grooved low end guides and scared everyone into this train of thought. My DAd ruined 3 cheap-o factory rods, one of which I think had Fuji Aluminum Oxide guides. Wheteher it was the line or tht the line picked up grit particles & hacksawed through teh inserts, I don't kow. I do know it was not User Tested at all before they sold it to teh public.

its all the "gunk" that is picked up in the line Sand particle and the like that causes the groving. I have hardaloys on my go to surf rod and have caught over a thousand stripers,sharks ,drum and nave not seen any problems. might cut the old style stainless guides

I agree with you completely on that point Michael. There are other valid reasons for that harder ceramics. But every quide manufacturer I've looked at talks about spectra safe only for their higher end products. I've seen many stmts and advise here and elsewhere that were based on the belief that spectra ate lower end guides. Has FUD been fed to create a myth strong enough that people believe it is hard fact? Where is the absolute proof on the matter?

Billy and Barry,,, oh yeah, I can certainly see the abrasive belt theory. And I remember some pretty nasty spectra and dynemea (sp?) lines in the past. Fireline I hated! But what is today's reality. Are the super lines today REALLY guide eaters?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2007 10:05AM by Dave Hauser.

I've used Fireline with HArdaloys i teh past, and currently use it with Alconite & SIC with ZERO issues. THat original spiderwire scared a lot of people off braided line. I'd be willing to bet some ingenius rodcrafter figured out that SIC didn't groove and started telling everyone to use SIC with braid. When the newer braided lines ame out and caught on in popularity, teh old train of thought that SIC must be used with braid mindset was still prevalent. IT makes sense for a Manu to say "braid safe guides", as tehy are more expensive guides which tehy make more money selling. IF you say something enough times in enough places by enough people - people WILL believe it. Myth or not doesn't matter.

Yeah,,,, that's what I'm lead to believe.
BTW,,,, the fireline I tried was the very first stuff. Like back in the mid 90's. I'm quite entrenched in Spiderwire Stealth for now. Like you, I've seen zero issues with my guides. And interesting enougn, the only levelwind I use with any frequency has always been spectra, and just has stainless wires for the guide bars.... and it looks fine now that I look at it. Perhaps more polished even.
I'm beginning to think spectra is our own WMD :-) Would sure like to see absolute proof tho.

Spectra does a dandy job of cutting up water veggies and my hands a few times, but not my guides. Have used it on some of my rods, 12-14 years now I guess.

There's these photo's of grooved wire guides.

[www.rodbuilding.org]

[www.rodbuilding.org]

[www.rodbuilding.org]

[www.rodbuilding.org]

I believe Steves photos show the start off the Myth, WIRE guides getting grooved. also Billy V is right"if you say it enough to enough people it will become truth. Till proven wrong!"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2007 12:40PM by Barry D. Thomas Sr..

Cool. Thanls Steve. From the looks of them, those things had LOTS of service. Groove on the one at 3 o'clock is a bit puzzling to me., but whatever.
So the same charter boat, early braids, story behind all these pics? More use on a rod than I probably get in a several lifetimes :-)

I recently saw some wicked grooves on snake guides from a Sage 7 wt. But those grooves would have been caused by either the fly line or the backing. It was a salmon guides rod, and was about 12 years old. The guide sold it to a buddy of mine- he was probably tired of replacing line every few trips.

If you own a fly rod that has had snake guides on it and you use that rod to catch running fish on ( a running fish is a fish that gets more than a few feet into the backing) I will bet money that the tip and possibally the first three or four guides will be groved by the backing. I quit using snake guides for this reason more than 12 years ago. I saw a snake tip top ring cut all the way through by the run of one sailfish. The guy was using 50 pound test teflon coated spectra for backing. That convinced me. Plus the fact I was already changing guides on rods a couple of times a year because false albacore were eating the guides up. Since I've changed to ceramics I've never had to change guides do to grooving.

Hi Michael.

I'm about to build a 9 and 10 wt for saltwater fly fishing(including some albie fishing this Oct) ,and even though I've fitted REC's previously and not yet had any problems,I'm going to follow your advice and fit ceramics.
I found one of your previous posts where you recommend TIGG's ,or TSG's as a cheaper alternative. I'm going with the TSG's (as I can't afford the divorce should my wife find the invoice for TIGG's.......) but will use a TILGT tip.
A couple of questions for you if you don't mind :
You suggest TSVSG's for the strippers , the usual pattern is a lower cradle type (TNSG I think) ..........is this because you prefer the strippers to stand off more i.e. a little higher ?
Also, you suggest sizes of 20 , 12 , and 10 for the strippers , but not 16?
Lastly, would you recommend a size 7 TSG for a 10 wt ?
Hope you don't mind me asking , but I always like to seek advice from people who are more experianced than me.........which is not difficult!

Many thanks

Jeff ( a newbie to this forum,from the U.K.)

12 years ago falls into that time period Billy and a few folks mentioned, with apparently more abrasive early spectras. A snake guide would impress me as the most fragile and easily eaten sort of guide as well. Put the two together and could be nasty. Certainly sounds like it was with that sailfish fight.
.
I'm more thinking the story today tho. That Jerry Brown spectra quote is darned interesting.

Jeff,

I use only high frame stripper guides. On a 9wt or 10wt for albies I like a 20, 12, 10 for strippers then a size 10,8,87,7,7 for the running guides. If you want to save a little money the Titan guides from American Tackle are a good alternitive. I used a 16 high frame guide for the second guide at on time but I don't think you need it. The size 12 works just as good. I'm trying to work with Fuji now to build a set of real fly rod strippers. What the industry calls stripper guides are not really stripper guides they are casting guides. Good on your baitcasting rod but not worth a toot on a fly rod.

ANY of todays ceramic guides are FINE with ALL of todays superlines, wire and steel guides are not, never have been, never will be-too much friction for steel to handle!

DR

Well I'm wondering. Perhaps not the most scientific test, but while out in the garage I chucked a piece of 304 in the lathe, spun it up. and pulled a piece of spiderwire into it back and forth crosswise (no, not wrapped around my fingers!). Not a scratch after several minutes..
Makes a bit of sense to me tho. We cut spectra with steel, but no one cuts steel with spectra. So it is either a wives' tale, or perhaps the weave can accumulate harder things in it and act as an abrasive belt?

Spent a little time trying to research the materials today. Unfortunately, they use very different Rockwell scales to measure these things. But it looks to me like ultra high molecular weight polyethylene (what spectra is made of) is a Rockwell R70, which walking thru some conversion to a closer scale to metals is about a Rockwell E45 (?). That is below the Rockwell B scale completely, where stainless comes in around B80. On the face of it, there seems no way that spectra can cut into something like a hard stainless.

Must be a materials scientist out there somewhere who understands this. I'm trying, but it isn't anything even close to my field.