Up to this point, I've stayed virtually exclusively with Fuji SICS (both Ti and Steel frames) and REC Recoils. Oh, also a bit of the AmTac Titans. Being a sort of weight freak, I've ordered one of every model pertinent to me and weighed them all.

Well, now that I'm looking at the possibility of building a bunch of UL rods using lower cost Forecast/Matrix blanks, I'm finding the guides costing 3-4 times the cost of my blanks.....:)

For example, I'm building my son an UL 6' 6" rod for his 12th birthday using Fuji TATSGs. One TATSG butt guide cost more than the the whole blank!

So, I'm needing to figure out what's the lightest ceramic guides (no plain steel guides) that's not Fuji SICs, REC Recoils or AmTac Titans.

Would the Aconite be the next lightest?
Or would something by Batson or PacBay or..... fit the bill?

There's two part to this question really:

1. Who makes the lightest size 6 ceramic fly guide? That seem to be the smallest for many guides?

2. Who makes sizes smaller than size 6? A particular model may not be the lightest design but by the virtue of smaller rings, may actually be lighrer than the size 6 in another brand. I currently think that size 5 is what I'd like to standardize on as it'll still pass the small Spro Power Swivel in size 10. (Their smallest) Since these are for UL, I'm thinking even size 4 may work....

Thanks in advance. Once again I'm leaning on you pros here. Much appreciate.

Mo




















Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/29/2007 01:31AM by Mo Yang.

Mo;
I wondering, why would you use a swivel on an ultra light rig?
Doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose of going ultra light?

Fuji SIC & Alconite weigh basically the same.

That would be incorrect Billy. Alconites are about 15% heavier than SiC. And on the light powered rods Mo is talking about, it is a noticable difference.


Mo - I haven't weighed anything but Alconites, SiCs and TiSiCs. But if you believe the propaganda, the Alconites are probably one of the lightest guides in their price class.




........................

Better to have and not need than to need and not have.

Post the weights of size 6 guides for both SIC and Alconite. They have the exact same frame material, and the rings are so small and thin that they are basically the same. HOw noticeable of a difference is it going to be? Will he losr 10 feet of casting distance? Will he not be able to feel the fish bite? What differences will he feel between SIC and Alconite?

I don't have enough size 6's to make a comparison ... inshore rod builder.

I did weigh SiC Gunsmoke SS 7's and Alconite SS 7's. 0.20gr for SiC and 0.33gr for Alconite. I don't have a super scientific powder scale, but I did check the math. I weighed 10 of each and the calculation was still the same.

Thanks all. Hope more will chime...

Steve, these are TINY swivels. I mean, really tiny. Some lures add line twist so the swivel helps a bit with that. Also, I use the swivel as an anchor point to change line very quickly if need be. Hard to describe my setup but it involves tiny clips like 'Snap Fast' and a tiny swivel. Works very well and almost no rigging time on the water.

Matt and Billy - Yup, the alconites do weigh more. Matt, you're right. I do believe that a bunch of guides added together makes a difference in regards to even a bit of weight differential. A simple way to test this is to simply add some tape at the foot of each guide to add a bit of weight and see how the rod responds differently. Basically I'm wanting low power rods to flex very quickly to lure and fish, but not the guides - so that it will recover very quickly after casting. Some people like the slow recovery of heavier rods such as Kencor as it imparts a nice action to the lure. I'm still trying to figure out whether I'd like that or not for some lures. At this point, I think I rather have the rods respond quickly to my movements rather than have it take a life of its on in oscillating.

Jim - .20 gr and .33 gr is a serious difference. And if you take TiSic, then the difference is even more - perhaps double.

Mo

Swivels + ceramic rings is a BAD combination. The swivel, if used, should never run through the guides, as the repeated contact will ultimately cause the ring to crack and break. As for cheaper guides in the same weight class as the SiC's forget about it. Your best bet is to bite the bullet, take the extra few grains, and use Alconite.

Ted - thanks. Just to clarify - swivel is not to CAST through the guides. It's just to reel it through the guides when in storage when using long leaders.

Mo

It is alone my personal opinion and I don't want to bother anybody, but....
0.13 gr x 6 guides, 0.78 gr total, is serius diference ?? (or perhaps double 1.56 gr total in TiSiC ??)

Even for a UL 6.6" rod, I see a weight difference not very appreciable , another question is the quality of the rings and your real running. Neither I believe that it is very appreciable the duration of the guides for these UL rods, that are not to fish many big fish every day.

A rodbuilding proyect that importance has the weight, the functionality and the price of the guides for each one of the rods that builds.

Greetings
Leon



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2007 05:40AM by Leon Vina.

I just built on a Lamiglass LSJ700, 5' 10" Spin Jig 1/32 - 1/4, 4-8# line, weight 11/16 oz. (sadly now discontinued, an awesome white bass jigging blank). I first placed Fuji BYAG 16J, 10J, BLAG 6J,6J,6J, 6J, 6J, and a BFAT 6J-4 tip. Then I tried ( both set-ups were attached with rubber tubing )Fuji TATSG 16J, 10J, TLSG 5J, 5J, 5J, 5J, 5J, and a TFST 5-4 tip. I expected some difference, but the difference was overwhelming. The rod with the alconites would have been a nice rod, but with the titanium guides it was a fabulous rod for what I use it for. I'm looking forward to the time Fuji makes a #4 titanium fly guide, Keeping weight off the delicate tip sections ( even a small amount) on rods such as these makes an incredible difference in the performance of the rod.

Leon, as Don Baker observed, the little weight difference has more impact than you may think. Rodbuilding Magazine had an article showing the resonant frequency changing with very little change in the guides.

If you factor in lighter than traditional thick epoxy finish by using something like Permagloss, that would some additional weight. So, lets take your figure and peg a total weight saving of 1.5 grams - less than your estimate.

The top half of a relatively low cost 2 wt Matrix blank (6' 6") weight something like 4.5 grams. So, that weight savings equals to 1/3 of the weight of the top half of the bare blank where most of these 6 guides will be. HUGE difference in my opinion for UL blanks. For Tuna fish blanks - then it doesn't matter.

Don, if you weigh that blank, you'll find it lighter than you think....:)

Mo



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/01/2007 09:15PM by Mo Yang.

Hello Mo
The first thing will be that I know which is your project. We cannot compare a spin-jig rod 5' 1" 1pc with a fly rod 6' 6'' 2wt 2pc. I don't have Rodbuilding Magazine and not you what writes on this, but it is always necessary to compare something homogeneous, it is necessary to compare apples with apples and pears with pears.

If you want to build a spin rod L or UL power in 6' 6" 2pc., in a blank for example Matrix AMSP7812, and your you want to use something enough more cheap that Fuji SIC type, but with a quality and weight acceptables, I would use Fuji Alconite type. If you want to build a fly rod 6' 6" 2wt 2pc in any blank, my election is clear, I would use fly Single Foot standar wire guides in your top half (I would never use others in these small fly rods).
But.... that go to build a fly rod or a spin rod? apples or pears? ; -)

A cordial greeting
León

Mo, reeling the swivel through the guides will do the same thing, much like reeling a lure to the tip top continually will eventually crack/break it. It'll just take a little longer. Long leaders are not a problem, even in very light line, if you tie good knots.

Leon, thanks. Makes sense.

Ted, thanks for the warning - I've never thought about that. Helpful. Perhaps I'll warp the tip top so that removable/replaceable as we sometimes reel the lure all the to the tip for transportation and storage. Does it break often? I've never had a guide ring break on me yet.

Thanks,
Mo

Like I said, it's harder to break a ring on the intermediates than the tip, but it can and does happen. It's pretty much the reason wind-on leaders, mindless of class, run on ringed rods don't have swivels incorporated in them. Really, if you have to use a swivel on the long leader, then it's worth taking the extra couple minutes to cut them off and store them wrapped on something that'll hold them. Personally, I use knots to tie my leaders, which regularly exceed rod length. What mainline are you using, and what leaders?

Regarrds,
Ted..