Quite a few times I seem to have seen it stated that wrapping with A was as strong or stronger than wrapping with D, supposedly because you got more wraps with A. Was poking around this morning and tripped over this page: [www.gudebrod.com]

The breaking strength stats on that page seem to say that wrapping with D would be stronger than wrapping with A. D is 73% larger than A in diameter, but 174% stronger. So the strength increases faster than the diameter. Diameter is what fills a wrap. This says to me that for a given length of wrap, D would be a 58% stronger wrap than the same in A (2.74/1.73).

Am I missing something here, or is it purely myth that A is as strong or stronger than D?

Dave,
The commom perception is that while the breaking strength of A is less than D, the added amount of wraps per inch makes it stronger. So, in answer to your question is that the reality is that 1 single strand of A is weaker than one strand of D. But, given that one inch of A contains more wraps of thread makes it as strong asan equal length of D wrap. I would even contend (because I have seen it done) that a guide placed on a rod with finish only is equally strong as one that is wrapped. The strength is in the finish.

Actually, I think what many have gotten at is that due to tension being cumulative, you end up with more overall tension when wrapping under the same tension with A than D.

Thread strength is not nor has it ever been an issue. Guides don't rip out of wraps, not D and not A. A larger, heavier thread is beneficial in those circumstances where rough handling is expected, but it's not used in order to get more tension or more "strength."

..........

I agree with everything that Kevin said EXCEPT the fact that "a guide placed on a rod with finish only is equally strong as one that is wrapped". Additional strength is definantly added with thread, however, I have said it before on here that this much strength is not neccessary. I've never heard of nor has anyone that I've ever asked, had a guide get ripped off from the force of a fish. Fishing line would break way before ripping any epoxied guide wrap. @#$%&, I've never had a guide ripped off during static tests with 1/4" masking tape holding guides on.

Newbies perfer D thread because it is easier to wrap (especially over guide feet) and seasoned pros like the undefined look af A thread, FORGET ABOUT STRENGTH.

thanks for the clarification Tom. I had it in my head, but gotlost in my own explanation of wraps. I would also contend that with the advent of epoxy varnish, all thread issues related to strength have gone out the window. When I learned to build back in the early 80's, varnish was still around. When that was used, it was still an issue. Not now.

Tom posted his while I was writing mine. He mentioned that "heavier thread is beneficial in those circumstances where rough handling is expected" but if you penetrate the epoxy through abrasion and are relying solely on thread, you are about to have problems even if you use rope to tie guides on.

Scott, what I meant was that you could hand equal weights from one guide epoxied and one guide with a wrap plus epoxy and neither would rip off. I misspoke when I said they were equal. Of course the wrapped guide would be stronger because it has thread on it. My fingers dont always hit the keys that my mind wants them too!!!!

LOL Kevin I have the same problem both when typing and speaking (especially to women).

Got sidetracked while writing a response only to see that Tom and Scott covered it. Dave, try an experiment. Wrap and finish a couple of guides with A thread, and a couple with D on some scrap blank or steel rod or something. Loop some heavy cord or cable thorugh the guides and try and rip them out of the wraps. Unless you are using monster guides, you'll pull the guide feet out of the wraps before the thread breaks. I've done this on some lightweight rods with A thread and have broken the rod before the guides pulled free. I've recently been concerned about thread elasticity after trying some new thread and am doing a few tests to see if that really does matter as well.

I believe that the thread is what binds the guide to the blank and provides the strength and not the finish. I believe that the finish protects the thread from abrasion, water, abuse , etc and adds very little, if any strength to a wrap. There are builders on this forum that fish SURF rods with NO finish whatsoever on the threads. I would doubt very much if they could fish a rod like that with no thread but encased in finish only. If you're talking about the recent "threadless" wrap, keep in mind that that is done with many coats of Permagloss, not epoxy finish.

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Not for nothing, but if you apply epoxy finish straight over a guide and try to pull it out, it's not that easy. This would indicate that epoxy DOES add strength to a wrap, or the guide would simply fall out of the epoxy coating which is no thte case.

I have never felt that the strength of the thread was an issue. However, i have always believed that the amount of stretch in a given size thread is important. It is my belief that the epoxy cracking at the ends of the guide feet is more prevalent when using A thread.

If you think of a crane picking up a load with a cable that is too small, it will stretch quite a ways, reaching it's plastic region and then break. The correct size cable will stretch just enough to tighten the lay then lift the load.

I use D almost exclusively, and have never had a finish crack at the feet. By the same token, I feel that the same tendency is reduced on spinning rods and spiral wraps. With those, the load is trying to pull at the ring. On a conventional, the load is pressing toward the blank, possibly trying to create a fulcrum with the foot.

Kevin,,, except that the calculation takes the number of wraps into effect already. Diameter defines the number of wraps.

That makes sense Tom, if the same tension were used.. Then of course that means not only is the A thread weaker, but it is also tensioned closer to it's breaking point % wise.
Seems to me some time back when we were talking about line tensions, tho, that people were tensioning less for thin thread and more for thick thread. So I'm not sure there is more accumulated tension either.

Hiya Mick! Oh no,,, not more experiments :-O. I have never caught up from all those experiments we were talking about offline many moons ago. But hey, the wife is going for a visit home next week, so I hope to start catching up on some.

So you are looking at thread elasticity?. Great. I have a wonder about that myself. There is some UV resistant bonded nylon thread that people in beadcraft use that looks wonderful to me. C-Lon is the name. For the life of me I don't understand why all the nylon thread makers don't UV protect, but they don't. C-Lon comes in something like 32 colors, which is enough for me. But the stuff has very little stretch, because it is not twisted. So I will be quite interested in your experiment!

So far as the thread breaking strength vs the application, I'm sure you are right. Even the weaker one should be fine for most apps. And epoxy rather glues it all together to buffer failure. I was being academic, mostly. Data leads me at least to think only D for overwraps.

> I use D almost exclusively,

Looks like I'm going to as well. I've two huge spools of B too. Anyone like black? :-) Going to use that B for underwraps and go with D for overwraps

Sorry, old math major drifted off.

Erik




Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/07/2007 06:49AM by Erik Osterby.

Billy,you spelled "teh" wrong.

Freddwhy (Rapt-Ryte)

Most people wrap under too much tension to begin with.

Epoxy alone won't hold the guides on the blank. The "Threadless" guide wraps written about in a recent RodMaker article won't work with epoxy - you'll pop the guides right off the rod with even just a little load. Epoxy is pretty much there to protect the thread, although it does help form the "shoulders" in the wrap tunnels that stabilize the guide foot.

..............

First let me state that I am a beginner. I wrapped & finished a single foot guide using 'A' thread, (Forhan style). I didn’t like the way the finished wrap looked so I cut off the thread in preparation for the re-wrap. I found that the guide was securely stuck to the blank by the Flex Coat finish and it appeared that the finish had seeped or leached under the guide foot. In my opinion this guide would not have failed fighting a fish if I had left it un-wrapped. FWIW