Hello. I’m a long-time fly fisher and a short time custom rod builder. I’ve been dabbling in rod building for about a year now and “lurking” this board for a few months. I subscribed to Rod Maker Magazine last week (looking forward to it!).

When I first began to gather equipment and information about building custom fly rods I joined a local fly fishing club and attended one of the introduction to rod building seminars that those type of originations put on every once in a while.

I believe that the “hands-on” information I received from the members teaching that class was invaluable and I seriously doubt that I would have continued with the craft - simply out of frustration at my own “uninformed” workmanship and the lack of “professionality” (nice word huh?) that my finished product would have shown.

Now that I am more involved in the craft and have more hands-on experience, I’m trying to tighten down my techniques and make myself a better craftsman while turning out a more skilled result. This of course, leads to more questions.

While lurking this board last week, I went way back to the beginning of the forums and started surfing some of the very first posts. One of the posts in the first dozen or so pages had a thread regarding “poor craftsmanship” or something to that effect.

As I read through the thread I was a bit surprised because the people who posted were apparently frowning on one of the techniques that I was taught in the class. So – I figured that I’d create a thread and ask opinions of the members of this board who seem to be quite knowledgeable and have a lot more experience than I do in rod building.

The question revolves around arbors under the reel seat. I have been making my arbors by building up masking tape rings between the rod blank and the reel seat, about 1/8” apart from each other. According to the thread that I read this morning – that is not considered a good practice. Is this truly the case? Is this a “cheap” and unprofessional way of fitting your reel seat properly? Is the use of masking tape for arbors really considered poor workmanship? Or is this more of an “elitist” attitude? Or is there a technical reason for not using masking tape? Will the masking tape fit deteriorate over time?

Can any builders with more experience than I have provide some insight? Pro’s and con’s of the use of masking tape and other arbors?

I think there are many who still use that method. Personally I like the newer Flex Coat arbors. I feel they are lighter and much easier to use than doing things with masking tape. From rods that I had to repair reelseats on, most used the masking tape type of arbor and it broke down due to getting water inside the reelseat.

I also like the Flex Coat arbors, lighter and easier to install. I do use tape arbors if the seat & blank are very close in size though.

Regards
Dave

Fishing is Life the rest is just Details

It's a method that has it's proponents - mainly based on speed and cost. Graphite arbors or the flex-coat arbors are much, much lighter and a more durable product. The way I look at it, it's an old technique that has been superceded by much better alternatives.

Not to derail Mike's original question but as Dave mentioned about reel seats with similar I.Ds as the blanks O.D. The only real way I see creating an arbor is with Masking tape or is there a better way?

Also I typically use only three tape arbors. These arbors are used to make the reel seat concentric with the blank upon instalation. After that the bond between the reel seat and the blank is at the empty space in between these arbors. The Arbors provide no adhesion to the blank so I believe that if they break down because of water intrusion it should not make much of a difference as they have always been utilized as a spacer and served no purpose for adhesion to the blank.

Mike,

I have been building composite flyrods for some time, and my methods have evolved with what the industry offers. Although admittedly I now build bamboo rods that employ the materials and methods from days past!!! I started with masking tape.....it seems at the time, that was the standard. I have used cork and wood for arbors. All have worked well, and I have yet to have a rod come back for repair (I also consider myself lucky!!!) The foam/graphite arbors are nice to use, and they shape very easily. But, I only use them for reel seats that are way larger than the diameter of the blank where the reel seat will sit. For example....graphite or metal reel seats. I almost exclusively use wood reel seats, and the bored diameter is much closer to the blank size. In these instances, I either bore the seat to fit, or I build up the arbor with fiberglass drywall tape. Since the tape is a mesh material, you can fill the voids with epoxy, and I believe you will have a pretty durable arbor even if water gets introduced in to it. The fiberglass drywall tape is worth a try and it is inexpensive.

Hope this helps,
Paul



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/31/2007 04:09PM by Paul McRoberts.

I have repaired at least two rods that had grips and reel seats submersed for a period of time. Both were high end factory rods and both had masking tape arbors. In both cases the arbors had become a slimy mess and would not have functioned well again had they become dry. The lesson I learned was to use dry wall mesh to build arbors or better yet use brick foam or similar arbors for first class custom work.

Stan Grace
Helena, MT
"Our best is none too good"

The fiberglass drywall tape is the best arbor material I've found as well. To elaborate: It comes in a large roll about 2-inches wide for about 3-4 dollars. It's easily cut with scissors to a more narrow width. Designed to reinforce and add structure to plaster, it also does a wonderful job of adding structure to epoxy.

It is something like first-aid gauze bandage tape; it sticks to itself better than anything else. So when you first start to wrap it for an arbor, you might want to attach it to the blank with a short piece of masking tape. The open weave of the fiberglass makes it easy to press Rod Bond or perhaps the new 15-minute gel into and around the tape. This makes for a strong, solid and totally water proof bond of reel seat to blank. Personally, I think it's far superior to masking tape for arbor use.

I think the foam arbors are useful as well if you need to take up a lot of space. However, I am not confident of their structural integrity when reamed to a thin wall to fill a small gap between blank and seat. I should mention, I've made rather large arbors using fiberglass tape without any failure. (knock on wood!)

RON.

When the fit between rod blank and reel seat is close, I spiral thread or nylon cord up the blank. With A, C and D sizes, you can easily shim those really close fits extremely well. Make two long bushings and spiral in between. I showed how to do this in the book I wrote for Amato (Rod Building Guide) and in a not too long ago issue of RodMaker.

................

Ron,

Once the arbor has been reamed or bored even thin, it's sandwiched between the blank and the seat and thus it's plenty strong. No problem whatsoever.

.............

As you noticed there are many types of arbors being used by builders. Just remember an arbor is just a spacer, As for masking tape most reelseat need only three arbors, one in the center and one on each side of the reelseat (set back about a 1/8th of an inch from each end). When I used masking tape. I also made micro cuts, horizontally accross the tape on four axes. I off set the cuts on each arbor, the widths of my cuts were about 1/16 of an inch wide all the way to the blank, this would allow the bonding agent to reach the bank and insuring me that the masking tape arbor was totally encapsulated with bonding agent. I do not believe I never had a failure. I know of at least dozen custom rod builders from coast to coast that get big bucks for their rod ($1,000 plus or more) that still use masking tape. I prefer to use perforated wall board tape . I hope this gives you some insight on arbors. Even today the manufactures of quality rods (big named Manufactures still use tape. Unless it is stated that they use another material for arbors.

Like I said earlier an arbor is just a spacer or shim and the bonding agent is filled in between, with a a thin coat of bnding agent on top. After Rod Bond curies. It is also (my openion) a arbor.
Good Wraps Bob

Thanks Tom:
I just wasn't quite sure about the shear strength of the foam when it was twisted. Looked a little too much like pumice to me....

RON.

Just to add; when the reel seat is so close to the diameter of the blank, glue the arbor in the reel seat and then ream the arbor to fit the blank. This is much easier than trying to keep the thin-walled arbor from breaking as it's being reamed.

Putter
Williston, ND

Holy cow! Now that’s a heck of a lot more information than I expected to receive! I thought it would be a simple subject to broach – and I suppose in a way it is – but you guys sure offered up a lot of information to mull over.

It sounds to me like the general consensus is that the use of masking tape is more of an “old school” and “tried and true” method that works - but offers up some possibilities that a small percentage may deteriorate over time. I suppose that makes sense and I think I’ll worry less now about the quality of the rods that I have built up to this point. I was a bit worried after reading that post referred to in my original post.

I think that you guys have offered up a few pretty good suggestions and I believe that I will give them all a try so that I can get my own feel for each. That, coupled with your input on each of these possibilities, should give me a pretty good base knowledge.

I’ll order some of the graphite or/and Flex-Coat arbors and give those a “feel”. I’ll also make sure to tell my wife that I am being forced to go to the hardware store for materials (cuz otherwise I’d never even think about hanging out at one of those kind of stores! Uh huh – and my wife hates shoe stores too – riiiiight). In the meantime I’m going to try and turn a couple arbors out of EVA. That’ll give me an excuse to go out in the garage and play.

Thanks for all the input. You guys insight and experience is much appreciated!

Just as a side note……. Do you think it’s a prerequisite that the general population of rod builders require first names containing no more than 5 characters – most being 3 or 4? Now I wonder if our combined desire to strive for some sort of excellence in craftsmanship or/and occupation with spending our free time playing around with an expensive and time consuming hobby has anything to do with our parents………

Hmmmmmm, looking back at this thread…… might make one wonder……
lol

My vote goes to Randy on the arbor. I use the brick foam and epoxy it inside the seat FIRST and then ream to fit, unless I'm using a seat with an insert that I make from acrylic or wood, then I ream that material to mate the blank perectly and use no arbor at all.

Even though masking tape is easy and available, we have all seen or personally experienced failures with masking tape arbors. The masking tape arbor depends on the masking tape adhesive, unless the builder is very careful to encase the arbor with epoxy. This is almost impossible to verify once the reel seat has been assembled so we use more reliable arbors.

Foam or graphite arbors are the best for weight. Cork arbors work well also. Drywall tape is also very reliable but you will use more epoxy than the foam or cork choices, and will be somewhat heavier, depending on the size of the gap. The adhesive joint will be very reliable in all the above cases, much better than masking tape.

Terry

Terry I believe know matter what arbor you use foam or masking tap you well have a failure if the arbor is not totally encapsulated with your bonding agent. That is why when I used masking tape. I made micro cuts slices across the tape. and made sure that the spaces between the arbors were filled. As for extra weight added to a rod when you use drywall tape, I think it would be minimal, like maybe a 1/16 of a oz. You mentioned extra weight !What weighs more EVA or Cork. Just my 2 cents.
Good Wraps Bob