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Wrapping guides with metallic thread
Posted by: John Richardson (---.dhcp.gnvl.sc.charter.com)
Date: May 19, 2007 01:35PM

I'm building an ultra-light surf rod for pompano using a Shikari steelhead blank. The guides are American Tackle single foot TiCh finish with holographic rings.

I have some metallic Sulky thread that is a variegated teal green and purple which I think would set off the holographic rings nicely. However, I wonder how strong this would be compared to Size A nylon. I just wrapped the ferrule using both and the Sulky thread is a little bit thinner than Size A thread.

Would I do better to wrap the guides with my teal size A nylon and just use the metallic Sulky as an accent? Or could I wrap the entire guide using the Sulky metallic without losing any strength?

Thanks

John

Waynesville, North Carolina --
Gateway to the Smokies

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Re: Wrapping guides with metallic thread
Posted by: Jim Gamble (---.126-70.tampabay.res.rr.com)
Date: May 19, 2007 01:44PM

You will be just fine, I do it all the time on much heavier applications that that. Never an issue.

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Re: Wrapping guides with metallic thread
Posted by: Dave Parrillo (---.prov.east.verizon.net)
Date: May 19, 2007 02:08PM

Normally I'll do a wrap of size A nylon 1st then put metallic over it, but that's just me. Give it a try and let us know how you make out. Have fun.

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Re: Wrapping guides with metallic thread
Posted by: John Richardson (---.dhcp.gnvl.sc.charter.com)
Date: May 19, 2007 02:17PM

If this was going to be a heavier rod, I'd consider doing double wraps. However, I want to keep the weight down since it is an ultralight. I'm strongly leaning towards using the Sulky metallic instead of the teal nylon just because I think it will set off the holographic rings more.

John

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Re: Wrapping guides with metallic thread
Posted by: Jim Gamble (---.126-70.tampabay.res.rr.com)
Date: May 19, 2007 02:25PM

Regular Nylon Size A Gudebrod
0.175" diameter
2.7# tensile strength
154# per cm wrap strength

NCP Nylon Size A Gudebrod
0.175" diameter
2.2# tensile strength
126# per cm wrap strength

HT Metallic Size A Gudebrod
0.150" diameter
3.5# tensile strength
233# per cm wrap strength


Nuff said ... the metallics are stronger, the only issue is separation while wrapping if tension is too high. The really great part is that no CP will be needed and you will get a better bond to the blank. Now go right ahead and wrap like you mean it!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/19/2007 02:26PM by Jim Gamble.

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Re: Wrapping guides with metallic thread
Posted by: Bill Stevens (---.br.br.cox.net)
Date: May 19, 2007 05:51PM

Here is another angle on this thread. Load to failure of the threads is one thing. The metallics are stronger to failure than nylon. The stretch under the same load is almost double in the metallics due to the very thin inner core. The metallics will really stretch a long way before they pop. I use Flexcoat finish which remains flexible for quite some time on inshore popping rods. I have noticed that the metallics will tend to allow a separation to occur at the ramp up point on guide wraps on flexible blanks that undergo a lot of deflection during use. I have also noted this on a number of production rods. They sure look good when new but I tend to stay away from the metallics to prevent this from happening. If you do use metallics be sure to pay extra attention to the guide foot prep and thin the frame down so it will remain flexible on the end when the rod is loaded.

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Re: Wrapping guides with metallic thread
Posted by: RON NIX (---.sttl.mdsg-pacwest.com)
Date: May 19, 2007 05:58PM

JOHN:
I DON'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT SULKY THREAD, BUT I DO KNOW IT'S A LITTLE THINNER THAT SIZE 'A' GUDEBROD NYLON, THEREFORE NOT AS STRONG. DON'T THINK IT WOULD MAKE MUCH DIFFERENCE IN AN ULTRA-LIGHT THOUGH.

TO BILL STEVENS:
THAT'S A REALLY INSIGHTFUL OBSERVATION ABOUT THE METALLICS. NEVER THOUGHT OF IT. THANKS FOR THE INFO.

RON.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/19/2007 06:41PM by RON NIX.

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Re: Wrapping guides with metallic thread
Posted by: Mike Barkley (---.try.wideopenwest.com)
Date: May 19, 2007 06:06PM

I've used sulky metallic on walleye rods and they are several years old with no problems

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

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Re: Wrapping guides with metallic thread
Posted by: Jim Gamble (---.126-70.tampabay.res.rr.com)
Date: May 19, 2007 06:44PM

RON NIX Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> JOHN:
> I DON'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT SULKY THREAD, BUT I DO
> KNOW IT'S A LITTLE THINNER THAT SIZE 'A' GUDEBROD
> NYLON, THEREFORE NOT AS STRONG. DON'T THINK IT
> WOULD MAKE MUCH DIFFERENCE IN AN ULTRA-LIGHT
> THOUGH.
>

The Gudebrod HT Metallics are thinner than the Nylon as well, yet MORE than 50% stronger. The ONLY issue that I am aware of is the one observed by Bill - and guides should always been prepped properly no matter what. The Metallics really are just fine to use - stronger, meaner and at times prettier.

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Re: Wrapping guides with metallic thread
Posted by: John Richardson (---.dhcp.gnvl.sc.charter.com)
Date: May 20, 2007 10:30AM

I'm running into trouble finishing off the guide wrap with this thread. The metallic thread is so slick that the whip finish isn't holding that well. Any suggestions?

John

Waynesville, North Carolina --
Gateway to the Smokies

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Re: Wrapping guides with metallic thread
Posted by: sam fox (204.73.103.---)
Date: May 20, 2007 10:56AM

I know Bill has more experience on the heavier rods and he is very observant. I have built dozens of fresh water spinning, casting and fly rod rods with metallics and have never had a failure yet. Yes, guide prep is very important. Strength wise, they have handled about all the fresh water fishing conditions.

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Re: Wrapping guides with metallic thread
Posted by: Jim Gamble (---.126-70.tampabay.res.rr.com)
Date: May 20, 2007 10:57AM

Odds are that you are trying to keep your tags too close to the guide feet, that is an issue with metallics - back off from the guides and you should be just fine if the tension is appropriate.

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Re: Wrapping guides with metallic thread
Posted by: Rich Handrick (---.gdrpwi.dsl-w.verizon.net)
Date: May 20, 2007 12:09PM

I think a distinction should be made between the Gudebrod Metallics and the Sulky metallics. I use Sulky for all my trim wrap work, and there is absolutely no question in my mind it is not as strong as Gudebrod regular nylon, in terms of straight tensile strength, it will break much more easily than nylon or HT. Gudebrod metallics are, as noted above, stronger than the regular nylon. Now, does the Sulky have the strength to be used as a stand alone guide wrap? I've never done it - but Mike has as he stated above and has had no problems, so I would imagine you'd be ok. But I think it's an important designation to make between the Gudebrod HT metallics and the Sulky Metallics.

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Re: Wrapping guides with metallic thread
Posted by: Mike Barkley (---.try.wideopenwest.com)
Date: May 20, 2007 01:03PM

Good Point, Rich!!

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

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Re: Wrapping guides with metallic thread
Posted by: Scott Youschak (---.35-65.tampabay.res.rr.com)
Date: May 20, 2007 07:38PM

I've asked this question before with no response. Has anyone had a guide get ripped off because all the threads broke simultaneously and the epoxy gave way? I've never heard of it. In this case I believe that Murphy is sleeping and just because it can go wrong doesn't neccasarily mean that it will.

I build rods all the time with metallic overwraps, never had a problem. Just think of when you are doing your static tests. A 1/4" piece of masking tape holds the guides on my largest saltwater rods at full load.

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Re: Wrapping guides with metallic thread
Posted by: Bill Stevens (---.br.br.cox.net)
Date: May 20, 2007 08:12PM

The thing I am referring to is not a failure of the thread in any way - no guides ripping loose or anything even close. What I am describing is a tiny separation of the intact threads in the area of the guide foot that allows a point of light to shine through where you can see the guide frame between the little gap. It forms a gap that will widen with time and to me looks quite bad.

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Re: Wrapping guides with metallic thread
Posted by: Scott Youschak (72.242.111.---)
Date: May 21, 2007 08:57AM

I understand what you are saying Bill, it is hard to keep metallic thread to not form gaps, but after you apply epoxy you are having seperation that increases over time????

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Re: Wrapping guides with metallic thread
Posted by: Duane Richards (---.rn.hr.cox.net)
Date: May 21, 2007 09:23AM

What about using permagloss as a 1st coat over metallics? That would surely hold down the threads from moving. Bill?

I've use metallics as main wraps in Sulky and GB, these BOTH are plenty strong enough for an freshwater use.

DR

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