Tom Kirkman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Danny,
>
> You didn't open a can of worms and it's fine to
> discuss such things here. No problem.
>
> Those cork rings cost that company about $10 to
> ship to you. Perhaps a tad more. Hopefully they
> had enough margin in the rings themselves to
> offset what they lost on the actual shipping
> charge. Remember, a shipping charge is more than
> postage or freight, and it's more than the price
> of a box or tube.
>
> All I'd add is that often when you order things,
> if you know you're going to be using more of
> something in the future, order some extras or add
> something else you know you'll need at some time.
> That way, you can often get more product riding on
> the same dime which ultimately reduces your
> shipping cost per item.
>
> ..................

Tom Ill take your word for it, your alot more experience that I, but I cant see how shipping 30 cork rings cost a company over 10 bucks....but hey stranger things could happen...

thanks for your response gentleman, Its given me food for thought, and some insight to make swallowing the pill a little easier!!!!




"There is a principle which is a bar against all information,which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance--that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
- Herbert Spencer

I personaly can't see how adding the price into the product by increasing the profit margin to help cover shipping expenses is any less (or any more, for that matter) deceptive. I would speculate that a competitive vendor that charges only the exact amout for shipping without much regard for packaging material and the time it takes to package the product, they'd have their profit margin set a little higher to make up the difference. In other words, if you have a vendor that takes the "cost of doing business" approach to things, most likely the vendor's margin is such that they can afford that "cost". On the flip side of things, those vendors that take the "average cost of shipping" approach, their product prices probably reflect a lower profit margin (if they are competitive). Some times that works in the favor of the customer and sometimes it doesn't depending on what is being shipped. Either way, the buyer pays...you just may not realize it. Like my dad used to say " Son, their ain't nuthin' in life that's free". Is it wrong? Not really. Bottom line is, time (handling) is money and the vendors are there to make money and the "cost of doing business" street runs both ways, but hopefully everyone benefits in the long haul. I think the important thing is to remember it is up to us to find the vendors who do not rape you on both sides of the deal. JMHO.

TJ

Emory & I seem to be on the same page, but I've seen many good points and opinions in this thread. As many of you have found, we charge what we pay to ship (cost). No other fees apply to US shipments. Boxes, envelopes, labor, etc... are considered "overhead" at our shop and are factored into the margin (the difference between what we pay and what we charge you). If i can't get a line at the right cost to cover this overhead and still offer the product at decent price, I don't stock it. That simple.

This just comes from my past experiences on the consumer side of the computer. I used to HATE getting whacked with packaging charges, handling charges, inflated postage, etc... But as a consumer, it was usually my fault! I'd shop based on price and think I really skinned the cat saving 15% here and 20% there, until I got the TOTAL bill and in the long run, probably ended up paying more by the time the stuff hit my door step (and charge card). I don't like it as a consumer, thus we don't do it as a vendor. I can't tell you how many times I ordered a top that didn't fit, turned around and ordered another $2 top that turned into $9-$10 by the time I got it.

Tubes? Boxes? Labor? Workman's comp? All very expensive, but that's my problem as the vendor, not yours as the consumer, IMO. And that's just my opinion. Sam Walton I'm not! At first look, we may be a few bucks more for the blank you're shopping for. That's because all of the above mentioned costs are factored into the price you're looking at, not added to the back end of the order.

As I've said here many times, I've yet to see a software program that will accurately and FAIRLY combine items into one box to give the right shipping price. It's just not out there. As I've tried to explain on the "shipping" page of our site, this is why we don't have certain shipping fees for a given dollar amount. Does it cost me the same to ship a $20 roller top as it would to ship a $20 7' blank? One's about $1.00 and the other's about $15. Is it fair to then charge $7.50 to ship either $20 item as a set fee? I think you can see, somebody's going to get the short end of the stick either way. That's why we don't automate our shipping.

We're the "Little Guy" though. A vendor that does volume like Cabela's HAS to automate the shipping prices and HAS to have set prices like this. There's no other way that they could ship the volume that they do handling it the way WE do. I get dizzy thinking what it would be like for them to actually pull the order, pack it, weigh it, THEN go back and charge the actual postage for it. Sure, they might be able to do it, but NOT for what you're used to paying for the item itself. it would drive the cost through the roof.

Long story short, shop what it will cost to put the item(s) on your door step. It's really up to you. "LANDED COST" is reality and shouldn't be a shock. Take the extra time and price you order all the way through before you get too excited about saving a buck or two on a component.

Mark Griffin
[]
C&M Custom Tackle
San Dimas, California

Emory,

That is part of my point - in an effort to be competitive these days, margins are cut to the bone and so these same expenses that once could be covered in that margin now have to be made up elsewhere. Thus, many companies have to put those shipping costs in the shipping charges, instead of being able to take them out of their regular margin on sales. Somebody has to pay for them, or the company isn't going to be in business very long.

...........

Everyone,

I too love this hobby and I will continue doing it and supporting as many of the fine sponsers I can and like I said its part of business in general. One thing I have noticed is some sponsers will reply to questions and posts if it pertains to their business and also to help an individual out, but after two pages on this post where are they?

Scott Kleppe Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Everyone,
>
> I too love this hobby and I will continue doing it
> and supporting as many of the fine sponsers I can
> and like I said its part of business in general.
> One thing I have noticed is some sponsers will
> reply to questions and posts if it pertains to
> their business and also to help an individual out,
> but after two pages on this post where are they?
>
> Scott Kleppe
>
>
> Fish now, cause you'll be dead for a long time.


Whoops, I spoke alittle late. Thank You Mark for replying.

Tom,
As Mark points out there are a number of ways that a distributor can calculate their shipping charges and I do not think that any of the mentioned ways are necessarily deceptive as long as the customer is told up front what the total charges including total shipping charges will be. But when the customer is surprised by shipping costs that are higher than he or she expected and higher than he or she knows are the actual shipping costs than that is in my judgment deceptive. In fact, I will go farther, I think it should be illegal.
I can sympathize with the distributor having to handle small orders but I think that there are several solutions to that problem that are not deceptive including a minimum dollar order amount.
The fact that there is a lot of competition for rod building components and as a result the distributors margins are small is not in my judgment an excuse to add on deceptive handling charges that the customer did not realize that he was going to pay to increase those margins.

God I can't beleave I am about to do this. But my friends have always told be that I am not the smartest dog on the street. Please this is not directed at anyone person JUST ME VENTING. I am in retail in something other than rod building so I understand a little about shipping and a little about retail. When I first got into retail there was one thing that just drove me nuts and than I began to realize I did the same thing when I shopped and it made me wonder way. It's simple, every time we have to buy something you can simply subtract it from the total of the paycheck or the retirement check or the bank acount and folks like it or not that is one of the most important things in our life. Anyway the thing that drove me crazy (enough to actualy come out and say this) is that there are more than a few people that actually think that you should sell the darn thing for nothing. Complaining about the price of shipping and the cost of the goods. I can get it for 25 cents down the street ; you get the idea. The thing that gets forgotten is that the realier like it or not is in it to MAKE MONEY. I know its a sin. Before you jump me about hidden cost or a fair proffit (there really is no such thing) I want to state that most of the time the small retailer and I am not talking about large companies here but more like the ones you see on the left of the forum, are not making that much money. In many cases I will bet it is less than many of you are taking home. Those few dollars for handling comes directly out of someone profit or as I like to say paycheck and most are just covering costs. I would also ask you if there was a way for you to make a little more money would you not do it. BE HONEST NOW. I know that it seems like charging for handle should be folded into the cost of the goods. However if you do that you have taken up the price of each item you sell and folks the first thing we look at like it or not, is the cost of that item. If we can get it somewhere else cheaper, guess what. We normally won't even look at shipping cost we will just move on. Price will always make or brake you. The thing that I try and sell and believe that it is by far the most improtant things is CUSTOMER SERVICE. YES I really do care about my customers and I think that most of the retailers here do also. Just don't forget we must make money in order to stay in business and unless you know exactly what that retailer is making give them the benifit of the dought. I will bet most are being fair and most of us if put in their shoes will do the same things. You know I just love this site I mean where else can you find both a hobbie and a place to to vent. Sorry if I offended anyone.




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/14/2007 11:06AM by Alan Royce.

Alan, You nailed it! What is the difference if you pay it in shipping or higher product costs? Either way, you're going to pay it!. How many of you include the RETAIL price of components in your rod quotes/prices? Isn't that pretty deceptive? After all, you're charging someone more than the actual cost for the items. Isn't that a "hidden" profit?? For instance, If you sell a rod for $200 and you quote the component cost as $100 even though you paid $60 wholesale for them, you are implying that you are making $100 "profit" when, in fact, you are making $140!! I would think that is pretty deceptive/misleading. I guess it's all boils down to whether you are the "deceiver" or "deceivee"

Just guessing, I would say that a large percentage of the vendors are small time and may not even have a brickfront facility. Unfortunately, it is a fairly inexpensive business to get into which results in a LOT of underfunded businesses with little overhead scrambling to try to make a profit,. This causes retail prices to be lower, and eventually will cause a lot of them to fail, thus reducing our choices. Those of you that have been visiting this board for a few years can attest to the fact that many vendors have come and gone (in some instances, gone with our money also). What this does is put a undue burden on the established Brick and Mortar businesses that actually have large inventory/investment (not just claiming to carry everything then having to order what you ordered), employees, and other overhead that much of their competition don't have.

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/14/2007 11:21AM by Mike Barkley.

Alan Royce Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> God I can't beleave I am about to do this. But my
> friends have always told be that I am not the
> smartest dog on the street. Please this is not
> directed at anyone person JUST ME VENTING. I am in
> retail in something other than rod building so I
> understand a little about shipping and a little
> about retail. When I first got into retail there
> was one thing that just drove me nuts and than I
> began to realize I did the same thing when I
> shopped and it made me wonder way. It's simple,
> every time we have to buy something you can simply
> subtract it from the total of the paycheck or the
> retirement check or the bank acount and folks like
> it or not that is one of the most important things
> in our life. Anyway the thing that drove me
> crazy (enough to actualy come out and say this) is
> that there are more than a few people that
> actually think that you should sell the darn thing
> for nothing. Complaining about the price of
> shipping and the cost of the goods. I can get it
> for 25 cents down the street ; you get the idea.
> The thing that gets forgotten is that the realier
> like it or not is in it to MAKE MONEY. I know its
> a sin. Before you jump me about hidden cost or a
> fair proffit (there really is no such thing) I
> want to state that most of the time the small
> retailer and I am not talking about large
> companies here but more like the ones you see on
> the left of the forum, are not making that much
> money. In many cases I will bet it is less than
> many of you are taking home. Those few dollars
> for handling comes directly out of someone profit
> or as I like to say paycheck and most are just
> covering costs. I would also ask you if there
> was a way for you to make a little more money
> would you not do it. BE HONEST NOW. I know that
> it seems like charging for handle should be folded
> into the cost of the goods. However if you do
> that you have taken up the price of each item you
> sell and folks the first thing we look at like it
> or not, is the cost of that item. If we can get
> it somewhere else cheaper, guess what. We
> normally won't even look at shipping cost we will
> just move on. Price will always make or brake
> you. The thing that I try and sell and believe
> that it is by far the most improtant things is
> CUSTOMER SERVICE. YES I really do care about my
> customers and I think that most of the retailers
> here do also. Just don't forget we must make
> money in order to stay in business and unless you
> know exactly what that retailer is making give
> them the benifit of the dought. I will bet most
> are being fair and most of us if put in their
> shoes will do the same things. You know I just
> love this site I mean where else can you find both
> a hobbie and a place to to vent. Sorry if I
> offended anyone.



Hey Alan, good response there my friend....I guess I should have thought about it a lil' before I started this thread, but inflated shipping charges bothered me a lil'. Now, making the arguement they hey, it is what it is, and its a way for a business to generate added income, I' ll swallow that alot easier than someone feeding me a line about shipping materials, added time to pick materials, etc... To me that stuff is a line of garbage. Tell me that hey, I got to make a living and I got to get it anyway I can, well, Im down with that, everybody has to eat! All in all, is it gonna stop me from purchasing from a company? NOPE! I'm hooked, I NEED my stuff! And it all you guys' is fault!!!! LOL It's blatent to me that I need to get another 12 step program in my life! Another program to work....LOL

Thanks all, have a great day!!!!




"There is a principle which is a bar against all information,which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance--that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
- Herbert Spencer

I guess I'll weighin on this subject. The other day I ordered a cork slicing jig from Golden Witch who used to be a sponsor. I try to do business with the sponsors, but sometimes I can't find what I need or did'nt see it. Golden Witch is in the state of PA and I'm in Kansas. I got the item this morning and the shipping charges on the box is $8.05 and on the invoivce they charged me $6.95. I have bought things in Kansas that I was charged way more than that to ship in the state. Go figure.
Thanks

Danny,

First let me say I am more than a little suprised you were that forgiving. Most people when you try and explain it that way really want to come after you. WHAT DO YOU MEAN ITS ABOUT MONEY. I think thats why most retailers try and push it off on cost or some other thing. Let me also say no matter how hard I try, I SHOP THE SAME WAY. I get just as upset about some charges as anyone else. Part of the problems is large retailers make it such a game of what the price is or big discounts that we expect that from everyone. I mean as much as we may dislike a large retailer they do offer prices that no one else can and still make a of a lot of money. (Ok so I hate my large competitors) Mostly because I want to make that kind of money but thats another rant. Anyway I just wanted to say THANKS for understanding you have no idea how rare that is.

ALAN



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/14/2007 12:34PM by Alan Royce.

I support what Tom says.
If you built enough profit into small items to cover the handling, the prices would be outrageous.
By the same token, shipping just one rod blank costs almost as much as shipping ten.
So to get the best prices on items, the shipping and handling has to give some kind of minimum profit.
How much profit would you think there is in a tip top that sells for $ 1.19?
How much would it cost to ship it, and how much to ship 10?
What I expreienced recently buying from an @#$%& store was $ 8.95 for one item, then another $ 8.95 for a different item shipped from the same place in the same box.
That may have been a little too much, but I had the choice, and the items were something that I needed and could not be gotten locally.
So, if shipping prices are posted, then you have the choice, do you really need that one tip top right away, or can it be ordered with other items to spread the shipping out over the whole order.
Customers overseas understand this, so they usually combine orders with friends to help with the shipping costs.
Don't confuse retail buying from mass merchandisers with the personal attention one usually gets from a rod building supply business.

Best wishes,
Ron Schneider
Schneider's Rod Shop
Mountain Home, Arkansas
[www.schneidersrods.com]
mtnron40@yahoo.com
870-424-3381

Easy fix here guys,

Shop with Colleen amd Mark at @#$%&. I've been a customer of their's since way before they were a sponsor here. I have NEVER had to pay more than the ACTUAL shipping cost. Which means, exactly what it cost's them to ship it to my door. Never any HIDDEN costs. What really frosts my cookies is these guy's on @#$%& and other @#$%& sites that will sell a high dollar item for 99 cents then make up what they lost on the item in @#$%& on the shipping. If your looking for a certain price on an item, list it at that price, then charge actual shipping. I won't bid on items like that.

Bill in WV



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/14/2007 12:51PM by William Bartlett.

Mike,
I do not think that charging $200 for a rod with component costs of $60 is deceptive nor is it deceptive to charge $100 for components that you paid $60 for or for that matter to not tell the customer at all what your costs are. However, I do think that it is more than deceptive it is down right dishonest to tell the customer that you paid $100 if you paid $60. Or more to the point with the way that the so called handling charges are often handled is to tell the customer that the rod will be $200 and then charging $225 on his credit card.
Or maybe even more to your point, I believe that these deceptive practices will work, in terms of increasing the distributors profit margin, SHORT TERM, but they will not work over the longer haul. All other things being equal, I think that the distributor that has the most honest and straight forward business practices in addition to competitive prices will be the most successful long term.
And while on that subject, I also think that the successful distributors should try to keep their costs down and margins up by running their business efficiently not by gouging the customer with hidden costs.

Alan Royce Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Danny,
>
> First let me say I am more than a little suprised
> you were that forgiving. Most people when you try
> and explain it that way really want to come after
> you. WHAT DO YOU MEAN ITS ABOUT MONEY. I think
> thats why most retailers try and push it off on
> cost or some other thing. Let me also say no
> matter how hard I try, I SHOP THE SAME WAY. I
> get just as upset about some charges as anyone
> else. Part of the problems is large retailers
> make it such a game of what the price is or big
> discounts that we expect that from everyone. I
> mean as much as we may dislike a large retailer
> they do offer prices that no one else can and
> still make a of a lot of money. (Ok so I hate my
> large competitors) Mostly because I want to make
> that kind of money but thats another rant. Anyway
> I just wanted to say THANKS for understanding you
> have no idea how rare that is.
>
> ALAN

Alan,

The way is sees it is, I support the little guy as much as possible. That was instilled in me by my father and that stems from my families long history of union membership. I DO NOT shop at the big box stores for many reasons, but mainly because the put the little guy, who pays his help as best he can, In a bind....They sell for less than u can buy.

So I can understand where suppliers are comming from with making a lil' extra on the shipping, but I dont have to like it either!!!
Ahhh....Acceptance.....I hate that word....

Take it light, have a good 1!!!




"There is a principle which is a bar against all information,which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance--that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
- Herbert Spencer

This thread came at a odd time for me and heres why:

I bought a set of guides from a vendor (they can speak up if they like, I wont mention them) and nothing more, just the guides. At my request they USPS'd the guides to me (I was in no hurry and thought that might save them and me $$). The guides came and I noticed the cost of the shipping was $0.85 to my door. I seen that and thought: sweet! saved a couple bucks.

I opened the invoice a day later and noticed the cost charged to me for shipping was $8.95 .....it didn't bother me at 1st, but the more I thought about it, I just had to know if the company had a "mininum charge" for shipping. So I emailed them..... asked , and told them of the costs. Turns out they DID have a $5.95 min shipping change. He not only told me of the min charge, but also thought that the shipping they charged me was EXCESSIVE for the item. They refunded me $3.00 !! and held to their min charge. I was NOT even complaining about it to them! I just asked politely.

I was very impressed with the way it was handled by the vendor.

I understand the need to cover ALL costs from shipping. However I dont see the need for seroius profit hidden in shipping charges.

DR

Emory, No one should take or put up with someone being dishonest or to disceptive buissnes practices, EVER. In my mind that is stealing and it is just worng. It is one thing to set your prices and than let things fall as they may, it is another to mislead or cheat someone for money.

Danny, you shouldn't like it and I was in no way saying you should. It was just nice to have someone at least try and understand. A retailer needs to hear and listen to what their customers are saying. If they are upsetting customers by trying to make extra money when they can cut that cost just a little, they are foolish not to.

Now as my fishing buddy love to tell me, it is time to Just pull up your panties and Fish.

Tom;
To answer your poll of rodmakers:I make bamboo rods that I sell for $850.00 dollars for a 2 p c rod with 2 tips, , bag and tube. When I ship that rod to the customer it costs me around 8 bucks for a pvc tube, maybe .50 for bubble wrap to snug up the aluminum tube inside the pvc, and generally around $22. in shipping and insurance, all of which I include in the price of the rod along with the excise tax, on the rare occaision I sell a rod in state I do charge extra for the sales tax just to keep from cutting the profit any more than the rest costs me. At what generally works out to less than half of what I make on my regular job( lead carpenter) I'm probably foolish not charging extra for shipping ,, packing and handling, but I figure that customers don't want to be "extra" 'd to death, so I just include it and I'll raise my price when it starts to hurt. BTW, what I pay for components, supplies and materials are MY business and I never make any mention of what it costs me to make a rod, my customers are buying a finished product for the price I set, they aren't paying me time and material to build them a rod.
john

Emory,
I agree that marking up components or not telling customers what components cost is not being deceptive. (I rarely mention component cost except when a customer ask about various component options) What I was referring to is the practice among a LOT of builders of using a cost "plus" formula when quoting a price. an example would be giving a quote of "cost of components + $100." and using the retail catalog price when they are paying wholesale. That is a very common practice and I see it often on custom builders web sites. I'm NOT saying that there is anything wrong with that, my only point is that it is NO different than what vendors do with shipping!! The only difference that I see is that our customers don't know what we pay for parts but we DO know what a vendor pays for shipping.

The vendors that I deal with clearly state the shipping costs on their web sites/catalogs (surprisingly, most are within a $1 of each other) and I guess that I assumed that they all did. After your comment about placing a $200 order and having $225 show up on the credit card, I started checking the vendors web sites and was very surprised at the number of them that DO NOT even mention shipping costs. Personally, I feel that any vendor that does not clearly state their shipping costs/options on their site/catalogs is intentionally being deceptive.

I don't like paying shipping any more than anyone else but I have no argument with it. I consider it an acceptable expense of being able to browse through catalogs/web sites at my leisure and punch in an order on my keyboard 24/7 and being able to buy things from all over the world with no real effort on my part. If you think about it, we pay over cost on shipping for just about anything we buy online or through a catalog whether it be Sears, Home Depot, @#$%&, etc. Heck, we even pay shipping/destination fees when we buy a car!! That's a good one! We pay a charge for Ford to ship a car to the dealer for us to buy. We even pay a "prep" fee for the dealer to get it ready for us!

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!