The discussion on light weights and long distances has caused me to reflect on some of my archery knowledge. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but if I remember correctly, a crossbow will zip a light bolt out very fast, but a longbow can transfer more energy to a much heavier arrow which will then go much long distances (I think the English spanked the French this way in some battle a few hundred years ago). Short compound bows also seem to let modern carbon arrows go faster than the longer axil-length bows.
Soooo.... Given that tip speed of the rod is the ultimate issue, it seems that whatever makes the tip fastest will translate into the farthest cast. That would seem to me to mean that a longer rod which could load a lot of energy into a very fast tip (assuming you can move that much rod and get the timing right) would throw the farthest. Am I right?
Along those lines, I think the challenge for me is the timing. I'm a pretty healthy and reasonably strong guy and I don't worry that I can handle 1oz at the end of 13' with any problem; however, my timing and technique are not strong at all so the extra fast action is harder for me to get right than the moderately fast.

The difference between a long bow and a compound bow has to do with a difference in the mechanics of each. I'm not sure those are good comparisions to fishing rods in terms of just different lengths.

Assuming the guide placement and sizing are both optimum and the reel and line the same, a longer rod will cast further. However, this also assumes that you are able to move the longer rod at the same speed as the shorter rod, which at some point you will not be able to do. Any time you gain any sort of mechanical advantage on one end, you give up something on the other. The longer rod will throw farther but will require more effort on your part to do so. When you no longer have enough effort to allow you to move that rod at the same speed as the shorter one, you've reach a point of diminishing return.


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But can't most healthy 40-year-old men handle a pretty long rod if it only has 1oz on the end, assuming this is light bait work with its less frequent casting requirements (compared to plugging)?

Probably, but for how long and how often? There's a lot of variables to consider here. Are you going to fish all day? Are you going to plug and therefore cast and retrieve continuously?

If you do move to a 13 footer, I'd go with graphite. Graphite is not magic by any means, but the weight and diameter may mean that you can move the 13 foot graphite rod as fast as you can a 10 foot glass rod which then translates into more distance. That's where the material difference really shows in the longer rods in terms of casting distance. It's not the material in and of itself that really makes the difference, it's the fact that you can swing a longer graphite rod as fast as you can a shorter glass rod.


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Marty,
I think that you are correct that the timing of your casting motion is the key and that the longer the rod the slower and less critical the timing is.
However, if I remember correctly your history is a little off. Maybe I am a bit more of a history buff than you are or watch the History TV channel more than you do. I think that you are referring to the Battle of Hasting in 1066. It was a key turning point in English history when the Normans from France under William the Conquerer defeated the Saxons from England. I can not remember who the English King was but I do remember that he was killed by a shot in the eye with an arrow after which the battle turned in favor of the Normans. I also seem to remember that the Normans were the ones using mainly long bows and the Saxons were using cross bows and the advantage of the long bows was that they could be reloaded and fired much more quickly. Maybe the Saxon king was king Harold.

Did Legolas fight in that battle?

Marty,
OK, I know that you are putting me on and it is probably a mistake to ask but I will bite. Who was Legolas?

The elf archer who was one of the main characters in Lord of the Rings - my boys will pretend to be him in the back yard with their fiberglass bows. He routinely drops enemies at distance beyond my effective reach with a .270. Cool special effects, and the kids don't understand why Dad is impressed.

LOL! Marty - didn't you see him, he was right next to Gimli the dwarf and his trusty ax :-) Incredible movies.

Back on track...

I think a very basic difference in the analogy that you are presenting is the fact that a bow or crossbow is a pre-stressed (loaded) object delivery system (the archer pulls back the bowstring), while the fishing rod is loaded by the weight of the line or the lure. I think there is more going on dynamically in the loading/unloading of a fishing rod than is going on with a crossbow, longbow, or even a compound bow.

There are some interesting analogies here. A tradtional longbow unloads its energy more slowly than a crossbow or compound bow. It acts over a greater distance unloading this energy. Ideally 100 percent of the energy is transmitted to the projectile (arrow). A compound bow unloads energy very quickly over a shorter distance. A crossbow unloads over an even shorter distance. From a physics standpoint, a recurve bow is a longbow trying to be a compound bow, by using a limb design that will unload energy a little faster due to the recurved tips. Comparison of the compound bow and traditional bow is probably most instructive. Since the compound bow unloads really fast over a short distance, it is ideal for firing a very light arrow. Energy is 1/2 times mass time velocity. The mass of the arrow can be light, but the compound makes up for it in speed. A traditional longbow is better suited to shooting a very heavy projectile. It wont get it moving very fast, but it can get the heavier arrow carrying with as much transmitted energy if the weight is enough. Momentum is mass times velocity, so the heavy projectile carries more momentum down range. Casting is the same thing, a long slow stroke can launch a heavy fly line or heavy bait with a softer rod than you would ever be able to throw with a light, fast action rod. Before the firearm came along, armies in England and Europe had different kinds of archers. Some shot very heavy draw weight bows with very heavy arrows. Absolutely terrifying, if you think of a rain of very heavy arrows raining down on advancing infantry or cavalry.

By the way, in terms of energy stored and released, a fishing rod is basically a model of just one of the two limbs of a bow. The dynamics get more complex in the motion of the body of the caster.

The thing about 1066 didn't quite sound right, as the longbow came into its own 150 years later during the hundred year's war. I googled this off the internet:

In the Hundred Years War the long bow was used by the English to a devastating effect. The long bow was also effective in naval battles. At the Battle of Sluys in 1340, English archers poured a devastating longbow attack on tightly packed French ships that suffered serious losses. At the land Battle of Poitiers in 1356, the long bow was responsible for the deaths of 2,000 French mounted knights – the elite of the French army. In 1346 at the Battle of Crecy, English archers devastated the French who lost 11 princes, 1,200 knights and 30,000 common soldiers. The English lost just 100 men. In this particular battle, 20,000 English soldiers defeated 60,000 French soldiers. This single battle is taken as proof of how just effective the longbow was as a weapon.

That said, with a little practice a person can sling a 1 or, preferably, 2 oz. weight incredible distances (well... over 100 yards at least) with the right blank, guide, reel, line, weight combinations. Its done regularly in surf fishing throwing the "iron" or "metal".....

Whit

Philip,
What were they using in the battle of Hastings shorter bows and what is called the long bow came later? They certainly had bows.
I think that bows go back 3000 years or more.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2007 07:37PM by Emory Harry.

Some of the English warbows had draw weights of 175 pounds. Those bows were not shot at a particular target, but rather like a mortar. The arrows were shot up in the air and rained down on the enemy. The English had a law that every able bodied man must keep a bow and practice with it. Try Tradtional Archery or Primitive Archer magazines for more info.

Marty,

I just wanted to thank you for "wasting" a bunch of my time. Your question made me realize I didn't know much about the Battle of Hastings, so I looked it up on the 'net. One thing (read: hour) led to another, and well, let's just say I learned a lot! LOL


Walt

As one who has built a few longbows and one who has built many fishing rods - let me tell you - if you think there are many schools of thought on how to build fishing rods - don't even think about exploring that other realm... (of course then there are the snowshoes I build... and it could go on from there...) - each process has many ways to skin the cat and no one will be the only effective way. Sure is fun manufacturing such things though... I might have made a good blacksmith! Enjoy your hobbies - they keep you out of your wifes hair! SMILE! Chuck Ungs

Walt,
I am going to have to look it up and see what is on the INTERNET like you did. The Battle of Hasting was a key turning point in English history and as a result our history as well. Everything changed after that battle, the religion, the type of government, everything.
Did William the Conquerer have long bows or is Philip correct that they came later?