With people having problems with their finish I wonder if anyone has take a factory tour and see how it's done ? Curious as to how the factory handles Flex coat . Bill

I have been through the St Croix facility before and they use a thinned down version of Flex Coat at first then a straight 50/50 mix for the finish. It was amazing watching them put on the finish, it was almost effortlessly for them.

Allstar Houston - four stations, two applicators for each rod, flexcoat from applicator pans mixed by another person, flexcoat brushes,bass and popping rods, less than 10 seconds each on 200 rpm motors. Guy one places finished rod in rotating dryer while guy two chucks another. After watching them it left little doubt for me as to how to apply finish.

Same at Lamiglas, nothing fancy for stands, etc. looks like it's all been there since the 70's or better. Just slapped on a couple boards for a bench.

Like Mike, I have toured St. Croix. After applying the finish, the person applying the FC hits all the wraps with a heat gun to help level and remove any bubbles. They work from a simple aluuminum pie plate with finish spread out, so bubbles aren't that prevalent. It's impressive to watch them apply the finish. The first coat is cut with MEK, and it primarily locks the wraps. Then one coat of finish, and the rod is on the dryer.

I wonder if this is why the factory finish jobs look so bad?

Only problem with doing it like they do it is that your finish will look like theirs. I've never seen a really good finish job on a factory rod and that includes the likes of Sage, Loomis and all the rest of the so called premium rods. Winston is among the worst I've ever seen.

Shawn, I'm not a commercial rod builder, but I do take issue with your comments regarding the quality of commercially-made rods. I think it is very unfair and inaccurate for anyone to condemn all commercially-made rods as poor quality or poorly-assembled, particularly in a public forum. Those guys on a daily basis, turn out hundreds of rods that make countless recreational users happy. Everyone, including commercial rod builders, probably have their good and bad days. Heck, I've redone a few of my own because I didn't like the way they turned out. Who hasn't? I don't care for the way Winston finishes their rods, but I do know a few enthusiasts who fish the Red Salmon runs every summer in the Alaskan wilderness, year after year, armed with nothing but Winston rods; and swear by them.

I wouldn't argue that I have inspected some commercially-made rods sitting on store racks that might not be up to par to custom-built rods, but that doesn't imply that they are sub-standard, or up to the job for which they are made. In fact, I admit that it's fun to pass the time going through the rod racks picking out the things I certainly would have done differently. But I do have to look hard, and anecdotally, I might have spotted a very small few, out of the hundreds available. But I don't think I, or any of the rod-builders I know have ever come to a conclusion to condemn the whole commercially industry based on our observations.

I have rolled a number of my own, but I do own many commercially-made rods. They include both bargain-basement, as well as high-end GLoomis IMX/GLX fly and spinning rods. Many of those rods were the rods that helped me build my enjoyment for fishing, and inspire me to learn how to assemble my own rods. Please keep in mind that without the commercial side of the industry, the ability for working joes like me to build rods would be far more cost prohibitive, and the plethora of component choices available would be far less than imaginable.

I think just about every rod crafter, who after building their first rod or two, goes through that phase of picking apart off-the-rack rods, and even other custom builders. There really ain't nothing wrong with that. And I'm not questioning your preferences. But to declare custom rods good, commercial rods bad, is inappropriate.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/27/2007 03:19AM by Patrick Vernacchio.

Please don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say any of what you just accused me of and I don't appreciate your attempts to make me look bad.

I only said that the finish on factory rods isn't very good. Most all of them have football shaped finish jobs with dry areas here and there. I can do better and so can most custom rod builders. My point is that the finishing proceedure they use is not going to provide the kind of exceptional finishing results that many custom rod builders get. The stuff about factory rods being bad is something you came up with. I didn't say anything like that.

Read my post again and then tell me where you came up with all the stuff you just spouted. It didn't come from my post that's for sure.

I took the original question as one of procedure and method and not really a quality issue. You will see good and bad finishes and everything in between from custom builders as well as production rods. I use production rod techniques to get quality custom finishes. Let's all have a cup of coffee!

I hate to say it, but I have seen "custom" rods that couldn't hold a candle to an Ugly Stick. The words "custom" and "Commercial" are just words and neither mean "quality", which is very subjective in itself

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Shawn,

In your post, you said "I wonder if this is why the factory finish jobs look so bad? " " I've never seen a really good finish job on a factory rod and that includes the likes of Sage, Loomis and all the rest of the so called premium rods."

I wasn't trying to make you look bad. I was simply responding to the statements that you posted, that on the surface, are pretty broad declarations. What statement did I misunderstand?

I made a comment on the finish on factory rods. ONLY and SPECIFICALLY. You said that I claimed that factory rods are substandard. I did not say that. I never said that I picked apart factory rods. I never said that factory rods aren't up to the job for which they're made. I never said that all factory rods were poorly assembled or poor quality. You said all that, not me. So please don't put words in my mouth. I never said any of the things you alluded to. Not even close.

Shawn,
I have to say that I got a few things out of your post that you state you didn't say.........I guess Specifics apply to you but the reader is left to their imagination.
While I look at production rods on a pretty regular basis, I see different levels of quality on rods. In turn, in the 18 years I have been with Lamiglas I have seen hundreds if not thousands of custom rods which maybe 10% of meet or exceed the quality that we require of our finishers.
We do have several different types of finishing done, it really depends upon the type of rod and at times the final destination. We also use different types of finish for different types of rods.
Last year the day before our April get together we had the guys from U-40 down and they spent the day with one of our coaters to better understand the needs of OEM use. They left here with a greater appreciation for production finishing than they came with. And I believe they felt that the quality was better than they originally expected. Especially when you consider they coat a rod with up to 13 guides in 4 to 6 minutes.

Regards,
Todd Vivian
Mud Hole Custom Tackle

todd@mudhole.com

Okay so you're saying that 90% of custom rod builders build a terrible rod and should never expect to be able to compete with what the factories turn out.

I know you didn't say that but as a reader that's what I got out of it. Two can play this silly game. If you get to put words in my mouth then I get to put them in yours.

Now, Now, Kids!! Not that it matters, but I agree with Patrick and Todd, The bashing of Factory rods and organisations gets old and should be beneath this board and those that use it. Factory rods are no different than any other when it comes to quality. There are great, good and not-so-good, just like anything else. I'm sure that most of the people that build rods at places like Lamiglas, St Croix, Loomis, All Star, etc. take as much pride in their work as most custom builders do..
Shawn, this isn't directed at you, there just seems to be a mindset among many builders that seems to think that only custom rods are worthwhile. For the Most part, factory rods are quality products. Where the custom rod excels is not so much in quality as it is in being "customer specific" and filling a niche that a factory rod can't such as variety of components, fitting a rod to a customer (guide size/spacing, grip size/type), meeting special needs/desire AND esthetics!!!


Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

I agree 100%. I just didn't appreciate having other people put words in my mouth. I'm sure that when it's done to them they don't like it either. This has to be a two way street. If they don't want it done to them, then they shouldn't do it to others.

Shawn,

When you use words such as "never" or phrases such as "among the worst", you don't leave much wiggle room to interpret how you feel about commercially-made rods, regardless of your intent or meaning.
I wasn't putting words in your mouth. I just included some assumptions based on your statements. If you say WInston rods are among the worst, then I can't help but conclude that you believe their rods are substandard.

It's just like a guy who says "I only drive Chevy pick up trucks" . You can pretty much take it to the bank that you'll never see a Ford truck sitting in his driveway, unless it's mine.

I was hoping that my initial response might prompt you to respond with reasons why you believe factory finishes look so bad, or why you believe WInston is among the worst.

I'd still like to know why.

I did NOT say that. YOU made assumptions that are not correct and continue to put words in my mouth.

MY INTENT WAS CLEAR. I WAS TALKING ABOUT THE EPOXY FINISH AND NOTHING MORE. I WAS VERY PLAIN AND SPECIFIC ABOUT THIS. WHAT CAN'T YOU UNDERSTAND ABOUT THAT. I NEVER SAID ANY OF THE THINGS YOU'RE ACCUSING ME OF SAYING. YOUR CONCLUSIONS ARE SO FAR OFF BASE IT'S NOT EVEN FUNNY.

I own 4 Winston fly rods. They work fine. But the finish on the wraps is shaped like footballs and there are dry spots and missed areas on all 4 of them. Not bad but not very good compared to what I can do myself on my custom made rods.

And please don't come back now and start saying that I'm accusing of the people at Winston of embezzilng or false advertising. I want to go on record right now that I haven't said anything like that either. I have no idea what you'll come up with next.

Okay guys, I'm not going to put up with anymore of this sort of thing. Shawn made a comment about the finish on factory rods and offered an opinion that is within the rules of this site. I have no idea where the rest of this stuff came from and really don't care. I understand his frustration but I have too much to do to have to referee this sort of thing. We're going to start pulling a lot more posts in the near future as it's plain to me that far too many board users are starting to get out of hand and are not able to police themselves.

................

Sorry. I just didn't like my post being taken so far out of context. Won't happen again.