how do you know where to place the guides on a spiral wrapped rod??

Forgive me I am a newbie and know nothing.......

Jim,

Just place them on top of the blank AS USUAL, then flip them all to the blanks bottom EXCEPT the closest one to the reel, leave it alone. Now add a new guide 1/2 way between the one left on the blanks top and the next guide (1st one on the bottom). This new guide only keeps the line from rubbing the blank. You're done!

DR

For the Bumper Wrap: As per ON-TOP, then FLIP.
"The SIMPLE SPIRAL WRAP: The BUMPER SYSTEM"
Author: William "Bill" Colby [RMM-8(2)]
RodMaker Magazine Volume-8, Issue #2, pages 16-17
Back issues ($7 each) available at www.rodmakermagazine.com

GOTO / SEARCH "LIBRARY" --> RMM INDEX - "SPIRAL"
for RMM back issues for other Spiral Wrap systems.


Also, SEARCH OUT these POSTS for some more reading:

Bumper Wrap Guide Placement
Posted by: Leon Mack
Date: January 3, 2006 10:53AM

Re: Bumper Wrap Guide Placement
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: January 3, 2006 10:57AM

Re: Spiral guide lay out
Posted by: Cliff Hall ... Date: ? ? ?

LOTS of other POSTS & REPLIES, too,
but these are at the heart of the subject. -Cliff Hall, FL-USA.

Like Duane said. Use a small low guide for the "bumper" guide at 90 degrees (either side) Since all except the first guide are on the bottom, you can use very small (#6 or 8) fly type ceramics for the running goides Do a search for simple spiral or bumper spiral, select All Dates and you will get a ton of info, Your best bet is to get a back issue of Rodmaker that covers it in detail

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Since most of the running guides will be at the bottom of a simple spiral wrap, instead of figuring out the guide placement on top and then moving them all to the bottom except the stripper guide, can I do it the reversed way? Treat the rod as a spinning one, do the guide placement, then turn the stripper guide up and maintain all the rest at the bottom. The advantage is that I will be using lesser number of guides. Instead of higher spin guides, I will use single or double foot low guides as runners depending on the line class of my blank.

Any comments?

Anthony Lee

Watch out for non-loading guides if you space them too far apart. -Cliff Hall.
[www.rodbuilding.org]
[www.rodbuilding.org]

Anthony,

If you do it like that, you'll most likely end up with your first two guides much too far apart. I've seen a lot of folks do it this way and there is no way you'll come up with a correct Simple Spiral System if you do. Not that it won't work - you'll just have a regular single 90 degree transition method instead of the Simple Spiral Bumper type method.

............

Anthony,,,, if you set up the guide spacing as for spinning, you are likely to end up spacing the stripper, 1st, and 2nd 180 guides further apart. The main 'gotcha' that can come from spiral are those guides specifically, since they can define the piece of the rod that will load late or unevenly. Getting the first 180 to carry a full load as early as possible is a good main goal,,, as until that happens the section between the 2nd 180 and stripper guides is unsupported. You set up as for spinning guides in that area and the unsupported section becomes larger. May not fail, but it increases the potential for failure.

Other quick ideas.... there is no reason to have the 1st 180 ring to be incrementally sized (as in the stripper is largest, and the rings get smaller incrementally going toward the tip). The further the line bearing distance from the blank is for that first 180 is, the more difficult it will be to get it to carry a full load. In fact, whatever the smallest ring is for the entire rod, you can use that size for all the 180 guides.

My own thought is that a slower action blank should also be helpful to get all the guides distributing load earlier.

BTW,,,, didn't see any critiques on this post (but maybe that's a good thing): [www.rodbuilding.org]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/20/2007 10:26AM by Dave Hauser.

Tom,

I have done it on my light saltwater jiggers that's 5'4' in length. Such jigger will have 15" butt handle and most overhead will only have enough space for 6+1 guides anyway. However, if it's a spin jigger using the same blank; one would normally have 5 + 1 guides. Do you think I will have any problem when I do a spiral with the spin set up? If yes, then I will have to recall these rods.

Anthony Lee

Dave, thank you for your instruction. I will digest and rethink what I should not do.

Anthony Lee

Anthony,,, sounds like your guides must be fairly close together within that 49" of line carrying length, whether setup as for casting or spinning. Even a few inches less than 49" since the spool centerline is where you begin consideration. Sounds safe enough on the face of it. Any numbers on the spacings you used?

Anthony,

No you won't have a problem. There are many different spiral wrapping methods and you have chosen one that works. Don't sweat it too much. My comment is that for the Simple Spiral, setting it up first as a regular spinning type rod will usually put the 0 and first 180 degree guide far enough apart that any guide placed in between them will have a side load, which the 90 degree guide on the Simple Spiral does not have. But that does not mean that it won't work - many use several transition guides at various locations and all carry side loads and continue to work.

..........

Dave,

From butt to reel is 15" and from reel to stripper is 19". My normal spin set up for 5 + 1 is therefore...

From tip,

1st guide size 8 ......4"
2nd guide size 8 .....4.5 "
3rd guide size 8...... 5"
4th guide size 10.....5.5"
stripper size 16.......6"
Bumper size 8

Your comments.

Anthony Lee

Can't imagine any trouble there, with just 11.5" between the stripper and 2nd 180 (if I read the numbers right). In that short a space, do you find the first 180 (the 10 ring) loading at all under flex?

Dave,

When I did the test, the 1st 180 guide did seem to load. The load distribution was fairly good, but like what Tom said, there is a slight load on the bumper as well. Do you think it will help if I change the 1st 180 to a size 8. This is a 30 lb class saltwater jigger. Also to improve the whole set up, should I space the guides differently?

Tom, thank you for your reassurance. Please guide me as I am pushing very hard to get the spiral wrap accepted. Mamoru is also introducing the spiral wrap in Japan. Just had an interesting coversation with him after he saw his Flicker Jig blank being spiral wrapped.

Anthony Lee

Sounds like you have it working just fine then. When you say a load on the bumper, did you toy with the positioning a bit to see if that is tunable, or just 90 degree and right between the guides? At least on my salt rods I am finding that slightly more than 90 degrees it showed no sideload when loading the rod up. I also found that a bit closer to the stripper minimized the amount of deflection thru various loads on the rod. No simple way to nail that down into simple instructions. I tried with that post I referenced earlier, but it is surely not as simple as Tom's simple bumper instructions.

As an aside, when we talk about load it is very touchy-feely. Very much by feel and eyeball. I suspect something like a piezo sensor between the guide and line while static testing could yield some hard numbers on stress distribution. That would be a very trick way to optimize distribution in a rod build. Customized even to the blank, guides, and reel/spool height. A bit out of my league there, but it seems very promising. If I remember right, piezo crystals generate a little current that is in proportion to the stress on them. Sure seems like a precise way to divy up the load with precision (and probably yield some surprises as well).

You want no more than 10 inches inbetween the stripper and the 1st 180 degree guide (8 to 10" is the range). The one thing about just using the standard casting static test to convert to a spiral wrap is in order to follow the blank without line slap the tip can get crowded with guides that have to go over the top of the blank. Optimally a spin static test for the tip half of the blank and a casting staic test for the butt half seems to fit better. Casting static tests drag the guides farther down the blank towards the reel and narrows the spacing. That would be ideal to my way of thinking.

Chris,

I now understand the underlying principle of the simple bumper spiral wrap. The transition or bumper guide is there only to guide the line from top to bottom and it is not suppose to take any load. Also , the load distribution of the first and second 180 guides are critcal to achieve a more balanced rod. Thank you for your comments.

Anthony Lee