I was told that, if I posted this query on this forum I would get some good answers.

"Knowing cork as a grip material, as a fly tying (popper) material, and as a temporary barrier between myself and a glass of wine, I am aware of its attributes. Not all of them are stellar.

"A while ago, as I gazed at a rack of fine graphite rods with my usual frustration that I could not take one home, it hit me. From the winding check to the tip we have space age materials that did not exist 35 years ago. The reel seats are similarly space age alloys or composit materials of recent development. But the grip material and the classic shapes are 100 years old. The shop keeper proclaimed,"There is no downside to cork."

"I said, "There are three. It is soft. It is fragile. It is expensive." Softness equates to a lack of sensitivity and durability.

"Fragility? Well we know it is customary to break the cork in half when the waiter presents it. We expect the lady to be impressed. But it is not a feat of strength like tearing a phone book in half. It is a feat of culture. One can gouge a cork grip with one's thumbnail. I visualize a cork grip shredding during a prolonged battle with a 200# Marlin though I have not seem it.

"Cork rings are expensive. A single 1/2 inch premium cork ring comes in on the high side of $1.00. (BTW vintners are paying over a dollar per cork to get premium corks for their premium wines.) That's over $20 worth of material to make a 10 inch grip.

"OK, cork is traditional. In fly fishing, the old ways die hard. But, as the price of cork rises, and as nasty quality problems arise even with premium corks, the vintners are looking for a better bottle cap material. Some have already switched. Is the fly rod grip next after the wine bottle cork?

"What are the alternatives? There are craftsmen out there turning handles from rare woods. I have seen the Birchbark grip-looking equally as fragile and more expensive than cork. Hypalon is one mentioned in the thread. I have seen a 7.5 inch Korkalon grip advertised that might do for lighter fly rods. The graphite Tenessee spin-rod handle has been around for a while. There is EVA which has been used as a grip on inexpensive rods. So, the idea of an alternative material is not totally foreign to fly rod grip construction.

"Is anyone using these or other alternatives to cork for their grip material? Care to share your experience?"

Do a Keyword Search one this board in the archives and be prepared to find a staggering amount of information and opinions.



Derek L. McMaster
Rohnert Park, CA

Born to Fish, FORCED to Work

Mike,
There are a lot of choices for rod handles some of which you mentioned but there is still nothing, natural or man made, that has all of the positive characteristics of cork. The main positive characteristics of cork are it has low density and relatively high elasticity so it results in a rod with better sensitivity than other denser (heavier) and/or less elastic (stiff) materials. Cork also has very low thermal mass, lower than synthetics, so it is comfortable to the touch. It is also fairly durable.
For applications like boat rods that do not require sensitivity and durability or toughness is a bigger issue some of the synthetics may be an improvement but not for most rods in my judgment.
Yes, wine makers are experimenting with other materials for wine bottles but very, very few other than with inexpensive wines are using anything other than cork.
There are literally hundreds of years of experience behind the use of cork for both rod handles and wine bottles so I doubt that any other natural material will replace it and so far there is no man made material that has all of the advantages of cork for both applications.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2007 11:57AM by Emory Harry.

Mike
The exotic corks are less expensive than premium cork, a lot tougher and wear like iron. I found this out when I started reaming my new handle out. It took me over 1/2 an hour to ream it!! I have to get a set of those Dream Reamers!!! LOL I also think the exotic corks make a very attractive grip and it has the same feel as natural cork. The downside is it's heavier than natural cork.
Here's a pic of one I just finished.
[www.rodbuilding.org]

Regards
Dave

Fishing is Life the rest is just Details

BTW - premium cork isn't only $1 per ring..that's the garbage stuff.

I have been steadily going more and more to exotic woods for handles on fly rods with very good results. Some of these woods seem to weigh less than cork and really light up the eyes of my customers when they see them. I just finished a rod using a handle done in Buckeye burl which is a beautiful thing with a matching Buckeye burl reel seat. It actually draws people into the store.

I don't make the wooden handles myself, yet, so I can't take any credit for that. I get them from a friend in Minnesota.

This rod and handle is the one pictured in the first RBI ad running in June and can be seen on the RBI or Black Dog web sites. I'll see if I can figure out how to post a better picture.

Joe Douglas
Rod Builders International
208-476-5708
joe@rodbuildersintl.com

Burl cork is my preference to regular cork. It comes in different colors, is a composite, ususally cut from flooring cork, which means it is very tough, and as with colored and the exotic is also very attractive. I use brown, blue, red, and green burl cork. It finishes smooth and when done I give a coat of tru-oil or cork sealer, and it cleans easy, and will last for years. I make mostly 6-6.5 foot spinning rods, and using the cork and stabilized wood for the reel seat inserts, most of the rods weigh in at between 5 to 6 oz. That is the complete rod. How much lighter does a person need a rod? I have also used exotic wood and when finished with tru oil is also very nice. It is not slippery and it attractive to most people. If you are using downriggers, and fishing where the rod is held in a holder I would recommend eva or something like it. But the cork is the most sensitive and my customers request the burl cork handles. If you buy wholesale from C&D Trading the burl cork is costing in the 30-40 cent range for 1.25 x 1/2 and that is a real bargain. And as mentioned above. the exceptional cork I have heard, is selling for up to 4.00 per ring and there is no guarantee that you will be able to use 100% of the rings if you are looking for perfection. Just my take on the subject. Galen Briese

Hi Mike,
I think Emory is correct. Cork has many advantages and I have rods I built 40 years ago in which the cork is in great shape except for the slime, grease, and dirt which I remove from time to time.

However, recently I began experimenting with wood grips for fly rods. Any sensitivity loss due to the rigidity of the wood is not applicable in fly fishing because the ine is always in your hand while you are mending the line or retrieving the line.

I do not use exotic woods. I use standard North American species such as Walnut, Maple, Osage, and the like. I have become a lumber junky and spend a lot of time at a hardwoods specialty lumber yard looking for scraps that are too small for stair bannisters or table tops. I look for pieces that have a welath of grain or color. from time to time I find a piece of burl from these woods. My cost is much less than cork and since I enjoy wood turning, I don't mind the extra time devloping a grip. I also use skeleton reel seats with the insert made to match the grip.

In terms of weight, I was surprised with a rod I just finished for a customer. It was a lamiglas 9' #7 weight and was quite tip heavy. I turned a 8" Walnut Ritz-Gordon style grip with my own modification. With this grip, a reel seat with a walnut insert, single foot ceramic running guides and two double foot ceramic stripping guides, the rod balances perfectly. There are alternatives to cork, but don't dismiss cork. I am going to build a 9' saltwater rod this spring and see how a wood seat works on it.

In my HMO, all wine should be preserved with cork. The presence of TCA is due to the use of chlorine in wineries and in disinfecting the cork with chlorine. The natural occuring compound in cork is anisole nt TCA.

Hello folks, I hit the post button before proof reading my post. Sorry for the typos.

Most of the vendors on the left who support this forum also sell the Burl (wholesale and retail). Personally, I refuse to spend as much for poor cork as I may spend on the blank! I use Burl, Wood and/or acrykic unless a customer demands it. So far, none have. I have NOT found wood to be slick at all (axes in a sweaty hand will attest to that) and if weight is a concern, that is easily remedied with a Flexcoat arbor such as Stan Grace (a VERY innovative builder) shows in this pic [www.rodbuilding.org]

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Michael,
You know about TCA contamination!!! Cannot be many rod builders that know or care about TCA contamination. You are absolutely right. It was thought for a number of years that the contamination of some wines was the cork but it turns out that it is not the corks at all but the way they and the wineries are disinfected or not disinfected.

If you look on the web at The Engineering Tool Box under density and elasticity you can find the density and elasticity of most woods.

Mike,
Cork reminds me of a beautiful women, soft, fragile, and expensive. Even though in my yourger years I met girls with high IQ's and wonderful personalities, those characteristics did not match up to beauty, at least not for me. That is not to say that I won't use wood or eva but if I can afford it I will use cork whenever I can but not at $2.00 a ring. I don't even think that Sage is using the high dollar rings in their grips anymore. Have you seen their new rods lately?

Thanks for the responses so far.

I do not want to get lost in the issue of capping fine wines and what agent is the culprit in the spoilage problem. I only brought up the vintners because they are the largest user of premium cork. The market for bottled wines has exploded in the last 20 years putting more pressure on the supply. My only remark about the vintners is that, compared to rod building, they are wastrels. The integrety of the cork is destroyed when the waiter pops it. After one use, it becomes junk. A cork grip delivers for decades provided it is not abused.

Please carry on with the discussion.

Hello Ellis,

I have heard that women choose to mate with men that can provide for and protect them and would produce strong children. I believe we men exhibit similar behavior. To me intelligence was a high priority. I figured that choosing an intelligent wife would increase the chances that my children would also be intelligent. After thirty six years of marriage, I am still glad I made that choice (except for the arguments I keep losing). Her personality, her gentleness, her abilty to sing in that quiet soprano voice while playing a guitar were also characteristics that I valued highly (remember this was the seventies). Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and is very ephemeral as well. Like a Hexagenia Limbata or a small Baetis, beauty only lasts for a short while. One of the most beautiful creatures I have seen is a small Damsel Fly found in the Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness in upper Minnesota. This little damsel fly has a body that is the most beautiful irridescent blue. If I could find a thread that color, I would wrap all my rods with it--customers would just have to accept that color.

A bit off topic, but what the heck.

Mike Blomme

Cool, Mike!!

Gotta go with Emory on cork, though. I love every quality it has, even the small irregularities. The 'feel' is the greatest of it's attributes, though, to me.

Putter
Williston, ND

The best insight so far. See my comments after the quote.

Michael Blomme Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hello Ellis,
>
> I have heard that women choose to mate with men
> that can provide for and protect them and would
> produce strong children. I believe we men exhibit
> similar behavior. To me intelligence was a high
> priority. I figured that choosing an intelligent
> wife would increase the chances that my children
> would also be intelligent. After thirty six years
> of marriage, I am still glad I made that choice
> (except for the arguments I keep losing). Her
> personality, her gentleness, her abilty to sing in
> that quiet soprano voice while playing a guitar
> were also characteristics that I valued highly
> (remember this was the seventies). Beauty is in
> the eye of the beholder and is very ephemeral as
> well. Like a Hexagenia Limbata or a small Baetis,
> beauty only lasts for a short while. One of the
> most beautiful creatures I have seen is a small
> Damsel Fly found in the Boundary Waters Canoe Area
> Wilderness in upper Minnesota. This little damsel
> fly has a body that is the most beautiful
> irridescent blue. If I could find a thread that
> color, I would wrap all my rods with it--customers
> would just have to accept that color.
>
> A bit off topic, but what the heck.
>
> Mike Blomme


Michael,

A little off. But you are making more sense than the pro cork crowd so far. Since the analogy between rod grip material in a woman is on the table. Let's just say I agree with you about wifes. To oversimplify, if we went by feeling alone, we would marry the first bimbo that lit the fire. But we know a lot of people that did that and got burned. So we consider things. Besides heat, women have virtues like intelligence, skills, interests, talents, physical strength, a musical ear... You know up front that when you marry you are in for 4 quarters, nine innings, or 15 rounds--the long haul. And you know via basic genetics that, if you marry a bimbo, there is a good chance your kids will be bimbos. So, in choosing a wife, you did well to point out that we have to get beyond 19th century romanticism and be realistic. I just want to do the same thing with rod grip material.

So far the cork crowd has not got beyond romanticism. I have three or four arguments for cork.

First, superior feel. That is very subjective though in the romantic tradition.

Second, fairly durable. Kind of weak if you ask me. Would you marry a woman who is fairly virtuous.

Third, the traditional material. What we have always used. By that logic I would be riding a horse to work. And I doubt that it has been used for grips over 200 years let alone the "time immemorial" that one aspiring poet implied.

Fourth, an analogy, "Cork is to fine wine as cork is to fine rod." Very romantic, very poetic, very lame. We do not throw away the grip before we use the rod as we throw away the cork before we drink the wine. There is no substance here and damn poor poetry.

It has been also pointed out that cork is a fine thermal insulator. This is irrelevant. Fly rods do not overheat during use. Besides, if they did, one could just dunk them in the water to cool them off.

So, everyone, who thinks cork is just "hunky-dory" till the Second Coming, has to go back and rethink that. The reasons given so far have been invalid since 1900. Come back with more substance or at least better poetry. Cork is still fragile, squishy, highly variable (unpredictable), and aparently impossible to grade accurately. That does not describe an ideal material. It at best describes a good material for bottle corks that are discarded once they are removed.

There have been some good comments about alternative materials so far, and I hope to get more.

I'm with you, Mike!!!!

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Some alternatives to cork for grips
[www.rodbuilding.org]

Stan Grace
Helena, MT
"Our best is none too good"