Hello All -

Just received my first fly rod building kit - Sage VT-2 4wt 4pc blank with all the "stuff" to build it, guides, reel seat, grip, etc. I've been reviewing this site (which is GREAT by the way) and have read a ton of stuff regarding spining (or not) and some other interesting topics. So naturally I've got a few questions before I actually dive in ...

1. From what I read on spining, I'm not going to worry about it. The rod came marked with alignment "dots" on each blank section. Should I worry about trying to find the "stiffest plane" of the rod or just attach the guides? What might I be missing if I don't try and find the stiffest side? The rod seems straight to me but what do I know? Can someone give a brief description how to find the stiffest plane in case I want to try it? I was thinking of calling Sage to ask about this too but not sure if that would be helpful or not.

2. What do you use to mark the blank for guide placement? I don't want to use a permanent marker in case I get it on a part of the blank that will show.

3. I notice I need to build up the blank where the reel seat goes. Is masking tape used and just keep wrapping it until the seat is snug or do you find something else to work better? Is masking tape the right tape to use?

4. The instructions I have show a stick glue for applying the tip - heat it, put it on the blank and put the tip on - but I didn't get any stick glue. Can I use the epoxy that came with the kit or should I go back and get the right stuff?

5. Any other suggestions that anyone wants to provide a newbie? I've got a wooden rod wrapping jig/rack given to me but no motorized dryer. I'm planning on just turning the blanks 1/4 turn every 15 minutes or so when I get to that point.

I'll apologize in advance as I'm sure most of this is covered somewhere in all the posts on this board but with spring just around the corner there might be other lurking newbies planning on building their own rod who might benefit from all this. Thanks much!

Take Care,
Steve
\><((((((*>

Steve, I'm a new rod builder as well (just finished my first two rods) so I thought I would give you some answers from a newbie's point of view and hopefully you can avoid the mistakes that I made.

1. I didn't find the spine on my rods. In your case I would simply use the alignment marks made by sage as the line I would place my guides. I'm wondering if sage actually put the alignment dots on the spine anyway???

2. I used a rubbery string (my wife makes jewlery and she uses this stuff to make stretchy bracelets) to tie my guides onto the rod in the approximate places that I though they should go. I then did static flex tests and test casted the rods to see how the placement worked. I had to adjust a few of the guides both for line path and performance but that was pretty easy to do since they were tied on with the "string".

3. I used the masking tape and wrapped it up as much as needed to get the seat to fit snugly. I wrapped one part and then left a gap about 1/2" wide and then put on another wrap and then left 1/2" etc until I had enough wraps on to support the length of the seat. I then filled the gaps with epoxy and coated the tape and slid on the reel seat. Another (lighter) way to go is to buy the reel seat arbors, which I will do in the future.

4. I used the same epoxy that I used to mount the reel seat to mount my tip but I think if you need to replace a tip it is eaier to remove if you use the stick glue.

5. Suggestions:
- #1 Do a search on here about applying the wrap finish epoxy and read everything that you can. Even after reading about 20 pages of the problems that people have had with it I still ran into problems with bubbles and issues with the finish. I would also suggest that you practice on a dowel or something else WITH THE GUIDES wraped on it before actually doing the rod. It is fairly easy to get the epoxy right on nothing but thread but I found that I had problems around the guides mostly. That is a really expensive first project you have and it would really stink to ruin the finish on it. It would have been great had I known how the epoxy would work before I actually started messing with it.
- Practice different methods of appling the epoxy to wraps to find which works best for you and gives you the result you are looking for. I started using a brush on the first rod and ended up with tons of bubbles so it didn't work very well for me and I switched to a spatula (which still doesn't work very well for me yet either but is better than the brush) others prefer a brush to a spatual so it's important to find out what works for you before getting started.
- When working with any epoxy, have everything laid out for applying and CLEANING UP before you get started. I made that mistake the first time and spent needed potlife time having to get other things to clean up mistakes or other things to work with the epoxy.
- Take your time and don't get in a hurry. When I start on my next rod I will probably do quite a few things differently now that I have my first ones under my belt and probably would have if I had thought about things a little more instead of jumping in with both feet. I'm very pleased with how my rods turned out but now that I've done it I realize there are much more efficient and easier ways of doing things.

I'm sure there are a ton of other things that I ran into or did wrong that I could list here but I think those were the big issues for me.

1. Some say it's important some say not. I do cause it only takes a second. It might be harder on a 4pc blank. I don't have a special tool or any thing. Put the butt end on something soft enough to not scratch like linolium. Tip section against your index finger. Push in the middle with your other index finger and roll it around. If it's not obvious don't worry about that section.
2. China Marker
3. Masking tape rings and lots of epoxy
4. The epoxy should work fine
5. Expect to give it a little more attention the 1/4 per 15 min. At least for the first half - 1 hour.

1 - i use the straightest length I can find without regard to the stiffest axis or spline - others will use differnent methods.

2 - I don't mark anything for placement. I use rubber tubing cut into small bands to hold the guides in place while checking for proper distribution then cut them off when wrapping. Masking tape will work as well. I do right down the final spacing on a sheet of paper after getting them to their final space in case something happens and I need to go back and reference this.

3 - You can use masking tape - a better alternative (IMO) would be fiberglass mesh tape like that used for sheetrock. Better yet would be a graphite or brickfoam arbors that can be had from most rob building suppliers.

4 - i prefer the stick glue for the top for the simple reason that , if i ever need to replace it, a little heat and you can remove it easily. However, epoxy can be used.

5 - I use a motor - but as of recently I've been turning the rod by hand ( 180 every 3 minutes) for the first 30 minutes are so based on some advice I receieved from another rod builder to obtain a better finish. Then turning the motor on . Without a motor you'll just have to be sure to remember to turn it

Check out the static guide placement article in the library - tom does a good job of explaining this. When wrapping the guides, remember, you only need about 5 or 6 wraps beyond the guide foot. Any more than that is just extra work and weight.
I doubt the kit comes with dentured alcohol - you can pick up some in the paint section of lowes or home depot - and use it for cleaning up excess epoxy. I'm sure you'll get some more great advice from others. A lot of guides have "pre ground" feet - this means exactly nothing in my experience. I take a flat file and work the feet carefully to prepare a nice ramp so the thread easily climbs the guide feet while wrapping. After filing, you'll want to hit it a few times with a fine emory board (women use for fingernails) to knock of any burrs that could cut the thread or dig into the blank.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2007 12:10PM by Joshua Turner.

Steve,
The first thing that I would recommend is getting a copy of Rodbuilding Guide by Tom Kirkman. It will be the best $15 you can spend. Masking tape for a seat bushing will work, but, IMO, is WAY down on the list of materials. I would use Flexcoat foam arbors.

For temp holding the guides on I find the simplest way to temporarily attach guides so that you can easily move/adjust them is to get tubing of various ID,s (go to any Hobby shop that deals with model airplanes. You can buy tubing in numerous sizes by the foot (used for fuel lines, etc) A cutting board and razor blade will give you a lifetime supply of really thin "rubber bands" in no time at all in various sizes.

Just slide however many you need unto the blank (with a few extra) roll them down to the "general" location where each guide goes and slip the guide foot under the band and you're all set. I put the rod /reel into a rod holder mounted to the end of my bench and do the static test as described in the library above. You will be surprised at how fast the whole process goes (minutes) after you've done a few. The more you do, the easier it gets!!

When you wrap your guides, go a ways up the foot until the guide is secure, just touch the band with a razor and it will fly off. Quick, easy and makes adjusting position real easy.

You don't NEED a motor dryer. Here is what I do and it works great for me. Level the blank so that the centerline of the blank is level. Just apply the finish while handturning and when it's covered, stop turning and wait for the sags to hang from the bottom. Remove the sags and rotate 180 degrees and let sag and remove again. Do this ubtil their are no longer any sags and then you can turn on the dryer if you use one. You will get a perfect finish everytime. Resist messing with it once it's on.

You might also want to go to MY CONTROL CENTER (in red bar at top of message list) and verify/unhide your e-mail address so we can e-mail you direct with help

What kind of epoxy came with your kit? Personally, I would use 5 min epoxy or tip top glue stick (makes it easier to remove tip for repair/replacement.

Scour through the FAQ's, Glossary and Photo Pages above and especially the Library Page and articles on Guide placement. Don't hesitate to ask any questions here and use the SEARCH function as there ar probaly 100's of 1,000's of posts archived there.



Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2007 12:11PM by Mike Barkley.

for the spine hold the tip section out level from your eye and keeping the alignment dot either up or down, look to see which way the very tip sags more. What ever way it sags less is the orientation you want to use.

I use a white china marker to denote where the ring of the guide will go, you can use thin piece masking tape well up the foot to tape the guides down before you start wrapping thread, remove it as the wrapping thread holds the foot down and finish off, soem guys use adjustable rubber bands threaded through a tube that hold the tension.

Arbhors are the lightest, masking tape is a cheap production rod process, either arbhore or wrappred thin sliced fibeglass drywall tape with expoy slathered on, try to go light on the drywall tape thickness, use three real thin pieces or fiberglass tape (built up arbhors) or two moderatly wide piece (arbhors) near the reel seats ends

Use the stick glue on the tip, heat the tip barrel and carve out a piece of the glue and lt it go inside, heat the tip of the stick and dobe over the blank end, heat both mating pieces briefly the assembly, you can reheat the tip to adjust, any excess glue will come off with your nail once cooled. Try the heated stuff 1st if the tip keeps coming off then use epoxy, but you want to be able to easily remove the tip incase you break the ring, most rods use that stick ferrule cement.

look at my photo gallery (page 3) for some cheap home made fixture ideas. A barbacue spit motor will work well and you can find one ata garage sale for cheap
[www.rodbuilding.org]

If you call and ask Sage, they'll tell you that the white dots they put on the blank are there to mark the straightest axis, not the spine. I'd go with them or sight down it and find the straightest axis you can.

Thanks for all the replies - great advice!! I was going to call Sage but after Shawn's comments there's no need. I think I'll line up the dots, sight the rod for the straightest axis and go with it. I'll also review this board to determine how best to apply the wrap finish. Luckily I've got a little time before that step.

A couple more questions ...

1. I want to sign the rod somehow; put my name or signature on it. Can I use the china marker to do this and then cover it with the wrap finish or is there a better way to do this?

2. If I'm not using a motorized rod turner/dryer do I have to use a particular finish so I can turn the blank by hand? I know there's thinner and thicker finishes. Is the thin finish too thin for hand turning or doesn't it matter? Does one give a better finish than the other?

I've got a couple more things to get and I'll be ready to start. Thanks again.

Take Care,
Steve
\><((((((*>

look for the straightest axis, but that straight rod has two orientations UP or DOWN twisting it around 180 degrees DETERMINE which way the blank/tip section DROOPS LESS. If there is an arc in that straight assembled rod make the arc point skyward so the weight of the guidses and things brings it down.

No the china marker is not used for inscribing, they have special fine tipped pens to do this. Practice on round blanks (in the fall cut off carbon arrow shafts can be obtained from archery shops) where the grips will go before you degloss them for glue up. I often tape off an area that will be inscribed because I'll more than likly have to do it more than once (burnish the tape edges, you'll need to burnish ther threads also) Make sure you have a solvent that will clean up attempt on the blank. Denatured Alcohol might do, read the pen.

there is little difference between the thin and thick build thread epoxy. I like the thin because I'm going to put on two thin coats over one coat well dried Color Preserver. After the 1st coat I knock down any thread burrs with an exacto knife blade. There is an art to getting thread epoxy measured and appled without bubbles research this site, use longer than 90 days when doing so. Either kind takes your attention for several hours of turning, and with slightly more on the threads the high build might form more drips if given the chance as there is more there. but too much and the epoxy will dry wavey and you can go right over your inscriptions with the thread epoxy also sealing them down also. I hoped you checked out my photo gallery for soem on the cheap fixtures namely a drying motor made for a $4 garage sale barbacue spit motor, with adjustable supports made from felt covered nylon bed frame wheels. There is also a easy to construct thread tensioning device (Arrow shaft and elastic cord variation) that much better then the phone book and tea cup method as the thread itself is not tensioned. link on my last post in this thread .