How do you guys that sell to customers determine if a broken rod was due to blank failure vs customer abuse?

Just taking an educated guess here but I would say that a failure of the blank would result in shattered fibers/no well defined clean broken edges around the area of the break or a collapse of the blank wall.

John

John, thats a tough one because the customer is always right........

blank walls cruched with cracks and splits up and down the blank, car door.

blank still in one piece with splits up and down the blank (twisted), blank defect or possible misuse.

clean break in a rod that is used on a boat, user error (resting rod on the gunnel while fighting fish).

If you are certain that they broke it:
What I have done in the past is tell them that you will honor the warrenty. Then, look then in the eye and tell them that after this one, they will have to absorde the cost to replace parts. the underlying message here is "I know tat you usted it and I will cut you a break this time."

As far as you know the customer is telling the truth. When you send the blank back for warrenty, you tell them what they tell you. If the supplier tells you that youcant honor the warrenty because of misuse, then pass that along to the customer and tell them that you will take a bit off of the cost of a new rod and reuse as many parts as possible.

Good luck

Kevin Knox
Anglers envy custom rods

Hi John
Ive just had a rod come back it had multiple splits in the middle and still in one piece,after further investigation I found the PVC packing tube had been crushed by something very heavy {thank you Mr freight company} There were two guides that were bent as well..all in all I salvaged 4 guides and cost me $200 Cool huh!!!!

Hence,,,,,,,,,,,,,,INSURANCE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I NEVER EVER send a rod out without insurance, PERIOD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! CHEAP MONEY SPENT !

With regards to warranty work, I tell the customer up front, BEFORE he buys a rod, that if the manufacturer warrants the rod, it is for the blank only, and if the rod gets broken for any reason, the blank is what is under warranty, not my parts and labor, they would have to pay for the rod parts and labor to do the work, the manufacturer is merely suppling a new blank, that is it.

<*)))><

Generally, any rod that breaks after quite a bit of use in the field was broken due to abuse, neglect or poor fishing fighting technique. Most times, a manufacturing defect will show itself pretty soon after the rod is first used. A rod that has been in the field for 2 years and then breaks isn't likely to be defective.

Another thing you want to do is look for tell-tale signs of impact around the area of the break. Scratches, dings, chips, etc., may indicate rough handling or impact in that area which is likely the cause of failure. The overall condition of the rod can tell you quite a bit as well.

.............

The TFO rep told me that 90% for flyrod failure is do to loose ferrules. This would be difficult to prove.
Bill

Insurance - have fun trying to recoup your insurance money from the postal carriers. A friend of mine shipped a Bazooke Tube with 5 custom rods (he's not a rodbuilder), valued the insurance at $2000. They cut him a check for $500, adn he's in teh process of fighting it. This happened in August.

I agree with Tom.

The latest warranty claim I had was legitimate. First time out the customer was casting his new spey rod and it broke in the middle of the second section, while casting. Sent it back to Batsons and they replaced it immediately. (Great service by the way). It appeared to be a defect in the blank wall in that area, not due to abuse.

Another one I had that was my fault early in my career. A bad job of prepping the guide foot caused the blank to break right at the end of the guide. No question this was my workmanship issue and I replaced it at no cost.

I've had others that were probably abuse and I told customers that if the manufacturer honored the break as a warranty, then I would pass on whatever decision was made, plus a $30 processing fee. I've had no complaints so far.

Terry

Improper assembly of a multi piece rod has to be high up there amoungst the top reasons why a rod fails in this case by operator error having not assembled the rod with the proper bayonet style assembly technique. Impact in all its varying forms has to be very close in frequency of occurance to incorrect assembly. All are not covered by the warranty alhough rods may have been replaced due to great customer service policies in the past you can never know if yours will be.

Your attitude has a lot to do with it and what side of the bed the customer rep woke up on, or if within that year upper management denotes that they have taken in too many returns already as they expect/factor in a certain amount which is always passed on in the retail price point. I'd say most often a Mfg determines a failure is their fault if the break is clean snap, (without a clearly define impact creator at that location) not a crushed situation and certainly so, if the rod is new and happens within the first few uses, if a lengthy amount of time passes since purchase they look at other areas of the blank to determine the extent of usage, or abusage as I call it.

Two years after purchase and you return the blank riddled with chips and dings, even with a clean break they might determine the failure to be normal wear and tear considering how you fished and took care of the blank was to blame. But any given day they will at least try to work with you and cut you a better deal on a new one if not just replace the old failed section. Thats; any given day, and not always the one you call on, because basicly; most reasons why rods fail is operator error and that is not covered under the warranty. And customer service reps are in a bad spot having to tell a customer he does not know how to fish correctly, or sensibly adapt to his equpiment and its particular frailties. The customer often expects the rod to be bullet proof for the price he pays.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2007 07:44PM by Chris Karp.

Thanks guys. Your posts were along the lines of what I was rolling around in my head.

I think that I will inform my customers that the blank manufacturer has the last say of what the warranty covers. So if the manufacturer says the break was due to abuse then the customer will have to pay for the replacement/shipping/labor to put the rod back together if they so choose. Otherwise, I will tell them that I'll give them s small discount on a brand new rod if they want, this way the customer doesn't feel left out in the dark by me. It's hard to get anglers to understand that small businesses' cannot absorb the cost of the customers mistakes/misuse of his/her equipment.

John

I amy be wrong but I understand if a rod fails do to a manufactur defect. the break is ussually clean as if cut with a knife with no frays, An abuse failur will usually show as jagged edges with lots of fraies and stringes
Good wraps Bob

This is the largest single issue in being a custom builder ...

I charge $20 for a "defect" replacement - most people tell the truth, some don't. If it has only been a month or two, I lean the customer's direction - otherwise I scrutinize the break. I do offer a "one time only" full replacement at 50% of the current retail within 12 months of the original purchase for ANY reason, including accidental breakage. I have found that this does help some folks tell me the truth and at least I don't get terribly damaged at half price. I essentially work for free, but at least I am not eating the cost of the parts.

There is no easy answer, but this is one that seems to work for me. Just realize that some people are going to flat out lie and others are going to be mad if you don't just give them another free rod in 2-3 days. People amaze me sometimes. Do what is fair, for both parties - and don't let anyone convince you to do otherwise.

As a custom rod designer and not a mass rod producers, your defect margin should be much lower than a mass producer of rods. Do to the fact you are supposed to do the little things the mass rod producers does not have the time to do. You are responsible for every step in producing that rod for a special customer. As for covering losses you can add a little extra to the cost of the rod, this should cover most losses. This has been covered earlier, an abused rod can be seen immediately. This also goes for a factory rod that has a defect. I recommend you contact the blank manufactures that you deal with. Ask, them how they determine why their blank may have failed. With this knowledge you can convey with some experience to the customer why a rod may fail. High sticking a rod. While fighting a fish is the most common cause of rod failure.
Good Wraps Bob

I have to agree that most rods will show any defects within the first few times they are used, but I also think that many customers have the impression that it being a custom rod means it's indestructable.

I can't count how many times I've seen guys high stick a rod and snap the blank, but I've also observed a few break when the angler grabs the rod near or at the tip to hoist a fish over the rail of a boat instead of either using a net or grabbing only the line, this has become more common lately with the use of super thin braided lines. They grab the rod instead of the line to prevent getting cut by the line. The result is almost always a snapped tip, often just ahead and behind of where there hand grasped the rod tip. I've had a few admit it straight up. Those breaks all were pretty clean, with only minor fraying of the fibers, it sort of depends on the blank and guide placement too. So far all of the one's I've seen weren't my customs, but I got the impression that whom ever built them had already denied warranty or they felt that it was the fault of the builder somehow. One guy even came to me already bad mouthing the guy who built it, even though he flat out admitted how it broke. His problem was that it wasn't strong enough for what he was putting it through, the rod was at best a bass rod, yet it was being used offshore when it broke. I explained to him that a rod like he had was never intended to hoss 40 lb. fish in. I wasn't too concerned with getting him as a customer for a custom rod nor a repair after seeing how the rod he had had been treated. I didn't want to be the next guy he was bad mouthing. The first thing I noticed when he handed me the rod was that it did have a hook holder, and yet he had a rusty old hook stuck into a well made cork handle, and the whole handle looked like it was used a pin cushion, so that pretty much told me how that rod got treated, regardless of where it was used or how heavy it was or wasn't.

Another thing to consider is many times with a graphite rod you could have got it dinged by a sharp boat gunnel, some ones lure that was being cast or a whole host of other sharp dings and the rod will for quite some time function without any problem. However if some of the graphite fibers were fractured, others may continue to fracture in that spot and then some day maybe a year or more later the fisherman might be playing a small fish, casting or some other lite duty well within the rod capabilities and the rod breaks. The fisherman says, which is true, that he wasn't putting hardly any pressure on the fish and it broke. But the damage happened a long time ago.