With the simple spiral, is it proven that the bumper (if used) on casting rods, placed between the stripper and 2nd guide is better than between the 2nd and 3rd or 3rd and forth?
I realize that on lighter rods there might be nothing more to gain and simplicity in set up to lose by adding that posibility to the system but I wonder about larger rods with high butt guides.

Bill,

If you put it anywhere else, the line won't pass through it. I cannot imagine how you could put it between any other pair of guides and get any use out of it whatsoever.

You may want to read the article again. It doesn't sound to me like you have a grasp of it, although I may be mis-understanding your question.

............

I could be wrong, but I believe Bill is asking if there's any benifit to be gained by leaving the 1st, 2nd and possibly the 3rd guide out from the reel on top of the blank, before flipping all the rest to the bottom.

Not really sure what the reason would be for doing so, but I don't build really heavy blanks or use any high casting guides. But if the "bumper" guide is placed between the last guide on top of the blank and the 1st guide below the blank, the line will certainly be able to pass through it.

Benefit? None whatsoever. No doubt you could do it that way, but I can't imagine what the point would be. And... you wouldn't have nearly as straight a line path particularly once the rod is loaded.

Try it if you must, but I don't think it's going to be a very good method.

........

Might have come from this post on one of the spiral wrap topics below???

"Tom,

With a standard med action bass rod with a low profile reel, would something like a 10 be too small to use as the 1st guide nearest the reel. I have been using a 12, but I tested a 10 and it seems to perform just as well or better. I went 10-8-8(bumper)-6666 flys and it really works nicely. I'm guessing I could have went with a 10 long ago..... "



Putter
Williston, ND

Yes, that puts the bumper guide in the wrong place per the article instructions. I won't say you can't do it that way, it's not the Simple Spiral but there are a lot of spiral systems that all work. But this sort of thing doesn't seem, to me, to offer any advantages and may offer at least one disadvantage - that of a very odd line path when the rod is under load.

.............

Seems to me the farther up the blank you'd want (as theb original post suggested) the line to go from top to bottom of the blank, the lighter/thinner and more flexible the blank would be at that area compared to lower down on the blank where the blank is stiffer and will remain straighter (comparatively) when a load is applied and the blank flexed. It sounds like one major objective to the simple spiral is that the line path travel in as straight a line as possible, this can best take place in lowest guided part of the rod.
This straight line concept in the simple spiral wrap needs to take place with a guide spacing of 8 to 10 inches to help keep it, in effect straight, The guide spacing further up the blank will naturally narrow and that might effect the straight line concept also. This may however be relitve as the blank so to does narrow, thus the line might still maintain a straight enough line path even with the tighter guide spacing. Moreover the blank thicknes may be relitive to the guide spacing in achieving a straight line path.

I would like to read the article that Tom Kirkman refers to. Please refer me to it.

Thanks,
Don

It is in RodMaker Magazine, Volume 8, Issue 2. Last time I checked, it could be ordered from the back issue section of this site. Additionally, there is a more extensive article on spiral wraps in Volume 6, Issue 5, however, after reading both pieces numerous times, the simple spiral wrap is the way I decided to go.
Tight lines,
Hunter

From ghoulies and ghosties,
and long leggedy beasties,
and things that go bump in the night,
Good Lord deliver us!

Thanks Hunter, I'll order that copy with my next back issue order.

Don

You want the transition within the least flexible section of blank. In other words, as close to possible to the butt end. The more flexible the transition section, the more variability there will be in where the libe wants to cross the blank axis in a spiral. Unloaded and with no bumper, lets say for example that it wants to cross exactly half way between the 0 and 180 guide. Now flex the rod. The more you flex it, the more the axis crossing point moves toward the 0. The more flexibility you have in the transition section, the less optimal you can position a bumper guide to cover the range between loaded and unloaded. And yes, you probably begin to load the bumper in such cases as well,,, a sideways load that will want to twist and loosen the guide from its wraps. That's one reason.

The other that come to mind is that the idea of the spiral is to gain stability. That stability is additive thru the loaded guides. As each guide carries a load, think about whether it is up or down. The down (180) guides will sum to some load value. The upper (0 degree) to another. The more the sum load of the 180 guides exceeds the 0 guides, the more the rod will be self-righting and stabile. Guides going toward the tip carry less individual load, and the blank is more flexible. So in fully loading the rod, the guides as you move toward the butt carry more and more of the load. Now it would depend on the blank and load (and probably some other factors as well), but it would not surprise me at all that if you decided to transition after the 2nd 0 guide, that the rod would lose the stability aspect of a spiral when under heavy load.

My thoughts anyway......



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/25/2007 03:51PM by Dave Hauser.

Sounds like excellent reasoning to me.

............

Just how close on average should/can the 1st guide be to the reel? Say on something like a popping blank that has a lot of whip to it?

DR

I'd say it depends a bit upon the line height off the reel, and how the line runs to the 180'ed guides. Then fit in the stripper you've chosen height-wise.
Remember that you want to think 'system'. With the spiral, the stripper and first 180 choices and spacing should be watched. If you are moving the stripper toward the reel and not dragging the first 180 with it, then you are increasing the size of the poorly supported section of the blank. It's a bit of a balancing act, but really no different than the spacing thoughts you'd have on a non-spiral rod.

Duane Richards (DR) Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just how close on average should/can the 1st guide be to the reel?

On my crainkbait rods, which are about as close as I get to building on a "popping" blank, the 1st guide generally ranges from 12 to 15" above the reel.

From the standpoint of an Engineering Design, in any Spiral Wrap System, the Transition Zone (TZ) [Last 000-degree to First 180-degree Guide] should:
(1) - be as close as practical to the Reel, with respect to casting purposes;
(2) - use as few guides as possible, so as to reduce lateral leverage on the rod & guides;
(3) - be as short as possible in distance between the Last 000-degree Guide and the First 180-degree Guide, with respect to load distribution and line path.
(4) - Also, the ratio of the number of Guides in the 180-degree position to the number of Guides in the 000-degree position should be as high as possible. Or to state it even more directly, there should only be ONE Guide in the 000-degree Position, and that Guide is the BUTT or Stripper Guide. As many of the Guides as possible should be in the 180-degree position, or as close to 180-degrees as possible.

As far as I know, ONLY the Simple "Bumper" Spiral (or some other 000-090-180 degree System) is capable of satisfying all 4 of these engineering criteria.

The chief purpose of using any Spiral Wrap is to reduce the external Rod Torque and the internal Rod Torsion on a Rod Blank, which results from load-bearing line guides that are positioned above or on the side of the rod blank (in any position other than 180 degrees, that is, the 6 o'clock position).

By having a Transition Zone too far from the Reel, there will be a greater number of guides in the topside 000-degree position, (and / or a greater length of the rod blank), involved in preserving the line Torque and increasing the rod Torsion. Since Torque & Torsion are what we want to ELIMINATE, or at least MINIMIZE, the Transition Zone MUST be as close to the REEL as practical. The closer to the rod TIP that the Transition Zone (or the Bumper Guide) is, then the less reduction-elimination of Torque & Torsion is possible.

That is simply a consequence of the sum of the forces around the rod blank from the viewpoint of Physics and Statics. And that is one of those relatively immutable physical laws that over-rides the other design criteria. The farther the TZ is from the reel; or the more TZ Guides; or the longer the TZ is, the LESS effectively that Spiral Wrap will reduce torque & torsion. Period.

The straightness of the Line Path affects casting performance to a certain degree, … but it has a lesser effect, in my estimation, on the load-bearing rod than the 4 design criteria I delineated above. …
I hope that helps, Mr. Peifer. -Cliff Hall, FL-USA.

I see what tom is saying. I'm working on a heavy bottom fishing rod. My perception was off in thinking that I could eliminate that unsuported section of blank by moving the first 180 guide out into the action a little and then reduce the angle the line breaks over the top guide by lowering the top guide and placing a high butt guide farther down the blank.
All the guides loaded nicely under a realitivly light strain but the angle of transition was exagerated even with the transition moved up the blank a mere 4 inches. The line path looked great with the rod at rest, but under load it was unacceptable and uncorrectable.
The way the first 180 degree loads was quite a distraction. I put alot of effort into hamering that square peg into complience. End result: embarrassment.
I would be interested in any articles that address the effect guide spacing has on a rod's loading characteristics, maybe some destructive testing included.
Are there back issues dealing with this stuff?

Several.

....................

Hi Bill.....
yeah, moving the first 180 guide closer to the tip will get it to load earlier. I am assuming you were moving the 2nd 180 as well. In doing so, however, you also enlarge the span between the stripper and 2nd 180. And until the first 180 is load bearing, that section is unsupported.
Bringing the first 180 into loading is a function of transition angle, line bearing height, and blank action in that section. It is certainly simpler to see it than explain it. Placement-wise, you want it in the section between the stripper and 2nd 180 that yields the most line deflection as the rod arcs. Since the rod is tapered, that point will be closer to the 2nd 180, and further from the stripper. As I said, easier to see than describe.

Generically, here is what I'd think:
*Choose low guides for all. Low being relative to where the line will ride when loaded as a spiral. So low footed for stripper, and low footed and small ringed for the 180's)
*Start with guide placement or published recommended guide placement for a standard rod. If you start as for a spinning rod, you may be short changing yourself on having enough guides to distribute load through the spiral transition section.
*With a static load test, redistribute the guides if needed
*tack down the guides from the tip to the 2nd 180.
*Mount reel and run line from the reel thru the loose stripper, loose bumper (if using one), loose 1st 180, and fixed 180 guides.
*Lightly load the rod until the 2nd 180 begins to load. Then slide your stripper along the blank from the reel toward the 2nd 180 until the line begins to load on it (or where your personal clearance limit between the line and the grip is met). Tack down the stripper.
*Now increase the load on the rod a bit more, and slide your first 180 along the blank to the spot where it loads or is closest to loading. Should be closer to the 2nd 180 than to the stripper. Now tack that 1st 180 down.
*With the main guides all tacked down, position the bumper where the line crosses the blank and presses the bumper directly into the blank under stress.
*Now if you like, redistribute the higher order 180 guides (3rd thru tip) as for a spinning rod distribution. But leave the 2nd 180 thru stripper alone, or you will have to reposition all of those again.

That at least seems to work on my 65lb, 6.5' bottom rod. And really it isn't different than how you static test for placement anyway on a non-spiral. The difference is that the load bearing surface of some guides will have a different distance from the rod axis when used as a spiral, and the angle of line transition is brought into play.

And Bill,,,, you mentioned in your post that you purposely went with a high stripper. Doing so made loading the 1st 180 more difficult by exagerating the transition angle.. Let the spool height and grip clearance requirements determine your stripper height.




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2007 12:47PM by Dave Hauser.