G'day all.
A few firsts here today.
My first post on this forum.
My first rod built from scratch
And, my first rod with a spiral wrap.

Be gentle with me. (It's my first time)

After reading many many posts here on spiral wraps I decided on the simple wrap method.
I set the rod up as usual for a baitcaster, did a static load and set my guid placement.
Then I flipped them all over bar the stripper guide and loaded up again.
I found I needed to move a couple of guides slightly before I was happy.

I have a couple of questions though.
Note all imperial measurements are rough estimates. the metric is correct.

Although the line follows the blank well under load, the third guide from the reel is basically doing nothing (the line doesn't really touch it).
The bumper guide is only barely impeding a straight line through and the stripper guide also is barely doing anything.
I have a moderate amount of bend in the blank at this point.
Viewed from the rear, with 12 o'clock being vertical, the line would pass the stripper at 3 o'clock, the bumper at 9 o'clock and the third guide at 1 o'clock, before all the rest at 6 o'clock.

The blank is a samurai NV7.
It is to be used for the impundment barramundi we get near my home (Lake Awoonga). These can often be caught over 1 metre (3ft) in length and weigh over 20 kilograms (45lb).
I will be running 20lb braid and 40lb leaders, so I have kept the guide size up a bit to pass the knots.
I will be running a shimano CTE400 and fuji SiC guides

My final specs are (from tip)

Tip - 0mm - #8
1st guide - 100mm (4in) - #8
2nd guide - 100mm (4in) - #8
3rd guide - 135mm (5-1/2in) - #8
4th guide - 150mm (6in)- #10
5th Guide - 180mm (7in)- #10
6th Guide - 220mm (8-3/4in)- #10
bumper - 140mm (5-3/4in)- #8
stripper - 170mm (6-3/4in)- #12
reel - 370mm to centre (15in)

Most of the posts I read said the bumper should be midway between the stripper and the next guide, but it just didn't seem right.


any comments for a newby?

cheers

Owen

Gladstone, Australia.

Well this is a whole series of firsts for you today....but I think you might have been a bit remiss in the search you did on this site because what I post below has been gone over many times by myself in previous posts. I only wish I had this information when I built my 1st sprial wrap as I did not use the Simple Spiral method because most of the expert veterans here are hard pressed to speak to some of the inheriant flaws of certain systems originated by other patrons of this board (as many of them sell product via this board) so spiral methods get sort of glossed over at this point in the dissemation of pertiant information gathering process, so not to disuade potential customers or offend contributing originators. It has been said (not by me) that this is not the end all source for the best indepth information as it has been noted that there are orther sources that will go into such detail, its just that you will usually need to pay for that information or do some very intensive research on this site.

This is the inherient problem with all spirals, The most refined being on ehtr simple spiral wrap method. The bumper guide (the guides 90 degrees to the others on the side of the rod) and the 1st 180 degree guide (The 1st guide on the bottom of the rod) don't carry any (significant) load even when the blank is flexed hard, and it is onlt when flexed hard that it carries a minor load). This happens more in other spiral wrap set ups as there are more transition guides which are also neutral. The load on a simple spiral bridges from the 1st stripper guide on top of the rod to the 2nd 180 degree guide on the bottom of the rod, what remains inbetween (1st 180 degree guide on the bottom of the rod and the bumper guide on the side of the rod) is neutral, so when I do a static test I add 1 insurance guide down low on the blank to tighen up the spacing to reduce this neutral distance 2 fold, as the neutral area covers two guide spacings on a simple spiral, the shortest of any spiral wrap method.

This is what a simple spiral wrap looks like when loaded , note the line path. If the line touches the guide ring at any other point than either 12:00 or 6:00 o'clock it is neutral and basically carries no load.
[www.rodbuilding.org]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/07/2007 09:46AM by Chris Karp.

Interesting stuff Chris. How does the addition of the "insurance" guide affect the placement of the bumper and stripper guides? I understand the objective is to minimize the transitional distance (from top to bottom of the rod) to distribute the load over the maximum length of the rod, but the closer the 1st 180 degree guide is to the stripper guide, the greater the angle of line deflection and (it seems to me), the greater the line/guide friction. At some point, wouldn't a really small transitional distance start to result in significant torque (not load) being imparted to the rod? How do you arrive at the happy medium?

Owen,

I think that the consensus of opinion would be that the "bumper" guide be placed exactly halfway between the stripper and first 180 guide and it will work fine.

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/07/2007 11:58AM by Mike Barkley.

Hi Owen,,,,
I have picked up probably 3x the number of guides needed for my first spiral, just to play with the choices. Started with the bumper idea, as it is the most straightforward. But in the end I will have something of a hybrid.

Think of all the methods as guidelines, rather than hard facts. Blank and guides make a lot of variation. So you play with spacing and placement a bit within those variations. Some generalities apply, though. Guides with the lowest height, from where the line will bear to the blank) work best. The lower the stripper and the first full 190 guide are, the less the deflection. Similarly for the bumper,,,, use the lowest you can. Looking over all the guides I have, the turbo style guides are the lowest with decent strength. The bumber doesn't need much strength for the line, so pick what you think is the lowest that will still have enough strength to live thru handling mishaps.
And on the stripper guide, try a larger ring size than the 12. Closer you get to the ring inside diameter being equal or greater than the rod diameter where the bumber would go, the better (that's my own advise, so take it for what it is worth). The larger the ring, the higher the guide becomes, because the manufacturers increase the height of the frame. So you are looking for a nice median between large enough ring for line to get around the blank, and low height.

Something glaring in your numbers, though. Are you saying you have a 12.5 inch spread between your Stripper and first full 180 guide? And with no load being carried by that 180, that you have a full 21.25 inches between the load bearing guides? That sounds like WAY too much. That sounds very wrong to me. Almost like you arranged thinking the bumper was a loaded guide. That is an awfully large span to bridge unsupported. You get into one of those big fish you are talking about, I think I can guess where the rod will want to break.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/07/2007 11:21AM by Dave Hauser.

Keep in mind that the ONLY function of the bumper guide is to keep the line from rubbing the blank finis (some builders don't even use it) and should NOT be entered into the configuration. The rod should be configured as normal and the bumper added halfway between the first two guides. It's called the "simple" spiral for a reason. I think that some tend to overthink it. Try it with all of the 180 guides as #8 SF fly type guides and see what that does for you. That' what I usually use for musky rods (Maybe a #10 as the first 180 guide)

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Hi Mike,,,,,,
why the #10 180 sometimes? Blank diameter?
Single foot fly guides are definitely the lowest manufactured. The turbos seem to be the next lowest. Choice to balance height and weight with endurance. If your equipment gets treated like mine (party boats are bad!), then turbos win.

I still think Owen has way too much distance between guides in the transition zone. Wasn't there a rule of thumb about trying to keep that distance between the stripper and first 180 under 9 inches? And as much into the backbone as you can do reasonably?

Dave,

I think that mine usually end up about 9 to 11 inches. The only reason that I would use a #10 fly guide as my first 180 would be if it gave me a better line path, which it seldom does. I think that many people over engineer the simple spiral wrap. It is what it is - Simple!!! It allows you to use the smallest guides that will handle you knots/connections, so why not take advantage. Fly type guides with a Forhan wrap will handle my musky rods

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Thanks for all the replies fellas.
I'll be having a look at a few options before I go any further.

Chris,

Chris Karp Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well this is a whole series of firsts for you
> today....but I think you might have been a bit
> remiss in the search you did on this site because
> what I post below has been gone over many times by
> myself in previous posts.

And I read it many times. However your's appears to be the only voice singing this particular song. Now that could make you a visonary (as what you say seems to have merit). However, I never base my actions on the opinions of just one person without having first heard alternate opinions - hence the question and the observations on apparent load distribution.
Whilst I'm not a structural engineer, it is apparent that the correct number of guides lays somewhere between 1 (the tip) and as many as can be placed on the rod and still allow for it to bend.

I had also previously looked at the picture you have posted. Two questions arise.

Firstly, except that you don't have a reel fitted and thus the line path is lower, what you depict does not differ very much from what I indeed have. You seem to have slightly more load on the first 180 degree guide. What size is that blank, and what are the relative measurements?

secondly, does the increased change in line path needed to bring load bearing onto those guides have any noticeable (large) effect on casting distance?



Dave
-------------------------------------------------------
> Something glaring in your numbers, though. Are you saying you have a 12.5 inch spread between your Stripper and first full 180 guide?
> And with no load being carried by that 180, that you have a full 21.25 inches between the load bearing guides?

Yes, those are about right (allowing for my rough conversion from metric).

I understand the point you are making re- needing to transfer more load lower in the blank, however I was also of the understanding that the spiral wrap allowed you to reduce the number of guides needed (disregarding the bumper guide)
This is only a 6ft blank and already carries 8 guides (not counting the bumper). If I keep adding more guides, am I not defeating the primary purpose of the method?
i.e. To allow the blank to retain as much of its original action as possible?

Thank you for the time you all took in replying - I do appreciate it.

cheers,
Owen

I don't know that spiral allows you to reduce the number of guides always. Certainly not simple spiral, by the book, because it has you set the guides up as nomal and then merely flip them over and add a bumper. In playing with it, yeah,,,, the guides flipped to the bottom can be spaced out a bit more like a spinning rod, and then you can lose guides. Maybe.

I think you've a problem with load distribution. 12+ inches and 21+inches sounds way too big. If it were a trout or some other baitfish sized thing, I wouldn't worry. But big fish and lines, I would personally worry. Play with the options mentioned. Take a good long look at your spacing.
If you think the single fly guides are robust enough for you, then they are the lowest.

I have no idea what that blank is. But if you are running 20lb braid and it is only 6 ft, that sounds like it must have some backbone. 8 guides sure sounds like plenty. Again,,, work on that spacing. You are talking right now about having nearly 1/4 of your blank unsupported under load. And it is the part of the blank that you will need on decent fish.

A 12 stripper also sounds small to me. Sandbox a 16 or possibly 20 on there. That should let you place it closer to the reel and allow you to space the guides out.... basically getting your transition zone into more solid backbone. Get that space down between the stripper and 180 as you can. Rule of thumb I've seen before said to stay within 9". That seems wise.
The lower the guides you have, the faster load will get into that first 180 guide. For the 180'ed guides, smaller rings and shorter frames bring the line in closer to the blank, and thus help reduce the transition angles. For the stripper, it is mostly about frame height and tradeoff. I personally would like a large ring and low frame, but of course the makers all raise the frame as the ring grows.

Cheers....D

The 1st 180 degree guide (bottom of the rod) has no load even when flexed as much as the rod I have shown is flexed . The line contacts the the ceramic ring at the 9:00 o'clock position and thus renders it neutral, the next guide up the blank; the 2nd 180 degree guide has the line touching it at 6:00 o'clock, THIS 2ND GUIDE BARES THE LOAD, the next guide back to bear the load is the 1st stripper guide on top of the rod. The guides inbetween do not transferr any load to the blank. A static test determines the fewest number of guides a particular rod requires...FEWEST...now with this double space basicly unloaded, or neutral, on the simple spiral.. I take out a bit of insurance and work in an additional guide low down on the rod, (no one else may do this..big deal) but as this double space is in effect neutral and has to be supported by just the blank, I opt to lessen the disctance between the spaces located in that area of the rod where this unique happenstance occurrs. Its the basic drawback to all spiral wraps that does get spoken about all to briefly here as certain spiral methods become more suseptable to this universal spiraling apparition, nor are ther many remedies offered other than to mitigate the occurance by backing the method with the least amount of neutral area which just happens to be the simplest

You would note if that pic was viewed directly from the side the line path would be almost straight and thus it only bunmps out to get around the blank thus its name the BUMPER guide. Half way between the regular guide spacing is where this guiide goes as Mike said.

AS John noted whats the happy medium, well the situation is already an abrupt change as the bumper guide cuts the regular spacing in half at the point it is located. It is just thrown in there off to one side half way inbetween the regular static test spacing, if that does not drasticly effect casting distance (which for all accounts here it does not, then cheating the guides a tad closer together on the bottom half of the rod should have little or no greater effect either) Now they call the bumper guide a bumper because it merely bumps the line out from a straight line, and the line is about the straightest when the rod is flexed? but in a cast the line pays out when the rod is not flexed but just after that when the rod goes straight then counterflexes in recoil. Tom indicates that the line does not tranistion from top to bottom because the line path is basiclly straight so it bumps not transitions (the line transitions in other spiral methods) It has been said that the line is the straightest when the blank is in flex and thus following that logic, then the term bumper guide is readily apperant, BUT most ppl want to know about (like John) is this JOG lets call it from top to bottom, hindering casting distance, when as we know the rod is not flexed (nor the line path that straight in relation to the rod), it is moreover straight or recoiling (recoiling far less than loading) and this bumper guide is not near a mere bump in the line as it parrelles the blank when the rod was flexed. So could it be that during a cast that this guide does transition the line from top to bottom as the line path is far less as straight as it is when the rod is flexed about to be cast. I think we put the bumper loaded cart before the transitional straight cast horse..where what was straight and bumped out when on a loaded arc, then transitions from top to bottom when unloading straight or recoiling rod has line draged through it. All and all, the crowding of the bumper guide makes little noticable difference in casting distance and you have to be a big wig in the industry to get a bi-line reference to a particular term wether it may technically or logically apply or not. As I have stated before with regard to this exact crowding of the "transition or bumper" guide issue...If there was a significant distance loss or gain to be noted it would show itself best in a situation where the standard casting rod configuration is the most vunerable, namely, casting into the wind with a light lure, then this crowding of a bumper guide on a less than straight casting line path where the line travels from the top of the rod to the bottom might be magnified such that a significant deviation in casting distance would become appreciatable

A spiral wrap does not reduce the number of guides necessarily, SAVE for the extent a casting and spiral static test differ in the number of guides needed for a specfic rod. The traditional casting static test usually requires more guides so the line does not touch the blank (but most rods are over flexed beyond the 1/3 of the rods length rule when doing a static test) If over flexed it may take many more guides to keep the line off the blank on a traditional casting rod static test. (and most of those extra guides will be toward the lighter tip area of the blank, even more so in an overflex static test situation) On a spiral wrap most of the guides are positioned on the bottom of the rod so a spinning static test which will use a fewer number of guides could be employed, but this test will also show the fewest guides required for that rod... and as you added guides to the tip area on a casting static test to avoid line slap so to you might add a guide to the butt area of a spinning static test to counter act a two space simple spiral wrap neutral area, the normal spinning static test does not account for, especially when thinking about load dispersion.


I am not a visionary, I just have OCCASIONAL 20/20 logic vision and have nothing to sell on this site which might imped or veil any drawback to a method which might need addressing. This is one of the best, if not thee best site because it allows all opinons so long as you are civil about your representations. Previously I have taken a (what I saw as a) logical stance about on-ferrule guide spacing (not an advocate) only to have what some experts saw as common practice, for common reasons, rethought because the reasons given as advantagious were not being applied correctly to this unique ferrule area. (Considering other universal common logic). So you won't see one of my 2 pc rods with on-ferrule guiding, I may be one of the few or just too proud to do it another way but the logic of the situation bears me out so I go with what functions the best...CONSIDERING...the drawbacks.
As for others not seeing many back my position... are you talking about the extra insurance guide or the fact that I speak to the inheriant drawbacks of the spiral wrap? If others do this on this site some methods might not be seen to be as good and thus no SALES might then be forthcomming. Most here must remain as neutral as the 1st 180 degree guide on a spiral wrap. In my previous post, I did go on to explain why doing a more throuogh search should have unearthed what I have to say about the flaws of the spiral; I did address those inheriant flaws many times, as whats good about the systems takes care of itself, and easily promoted, but like anything else, you work on the problems with the system. The systems are fairly good and failures because of a particular spiral wrap can happen but rarely do (I have yet to hear about one on this board) When I came to this board, and back then the simple spiral wasn't hyped as much as it is now, their were other partrons who had books out to sell and thus, their systems were bandied about. I wish back then some one told me the basic flaw to all spirals so I could pick the method with the least amount of flaw, but if were to happen then... that person too would be alone in his opinion so to maintain a political correctness, which in and of itself has merit. but as I say what goes right, or is a advantagious to a system takes care of itself what needs to be tweeked is what isn't so GRAND and not many will mention up front.

That 1st 180 degree guide (bottom of the rod) can carry a load, WHEN THE ROD IS EXTREMELY FLEXED, the SMALLER the guide the sooner the line (under extreme flex) will come to rest at the 6:00 o'clock load bearing position, but even then the load carried is minimal as it only just comes in contact with the guide ring on the right (6:00) spot to transferr a load...by then the rod is about maxed out, flex wise. So what does this mean: it means, after the 1st stripper guide on top of the rod you might then be able to get away with the smallest ringed guide the size line you use and the knots tied in it will pass easily through. Even the bumper guide could be the smallest guide just so long as the line does not touch the blank as it bumps around it. The 1st 180 degree guide might be a size bigger than your smallest run-out-to-the-tip guides, in order to accomodate getting (bumping ) around the blank, if extra guide height is not needed for this (bump out) then only two size guides might be required for the whole rod.

I hope this covered all aspects noted in the previous posts



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/07/2007 07:52PM by Chris Karp.

Chris,

You keep talking about salesman and people with a hidden agenda like there is some kind of plot. VERY FEW of the people that I have ever seen post here are selling ANYTHING and have NO vested interest in how one sets up a spiral wrap or what guides one uses. Those statements are a disservice to the many people here that freely offer their opinions/suggestions and help on this board with NO agenda other than offering help!!

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/07/2007 11:31PM by Mike Barkley.

A precieved disservice or not, advise most often plays out in a PC way, and the fundimental drawback to the spiral wrap is ommited. To me it is the key factor to note as it is the only possible drawback to contend with, and as some methods heighten this aspect it would deter consideration of those methods and thus reduce patronage to certain sponcers who do post on this site, and as Tom does not accept donations he merely asks that you partonize the sponcers who help pay for the board, it is not a qunatum leap in logic, to help as you infere, in such a way as to keep every avenue of possible income open from those who seek knowledge here and thus reward those who help keep this site afloat by purchasing sponcers goods. (As suggested by Tom) What best supports my perspective, the one your opinon considers a disserivce is the fact that, if partonizing all the sponcers were not a considered objective..and to some at least subliminally. I would not be just about the only one speaking to the fact that the inheriant drawback to all spiral methods does effects certain older spiral methods to a greater degree, and thus bring a brighter light of day upon in a fashion (is said to be) only readily available, if one purchased the in-depth, tell-all, how-to-and-why, products sponcered on this site. I've been a saleman for years and can see PC salemanship a mile off, but what I do is in essenance tell; the potential customer whose battery is not holding a charge after repeated charging, That if it is not a sealed battery, he may have evaporated and good deal of the electro lite in his battery by charging alot and not to replace it with distilled water (as the quick to answer reccomend) but go buy some cheap electo-lite at Napa and fill the battery back up and then charge it up again and see if that fixes the problem, instead of just pleasing my Boss and selling another battery, I just made a customer for life and when he does need that new battery you know where he is going to buy it. So I could take the easy route say I did help him out by selling him a battery, but I'd rather earn his respect by putting money totally aside and telling him something he might not have considered, and the only person who might ever envision what I did as a dissservice to pass on otherwise pay-per-view information, or call a PC responce exactly that, would be my boss as it effected store sales for the day.

If you build a rod, you need guides, PERIOD! It makes no difference to a vendor which method you use as you are still buying the same components. People have preferences and opinions and because you may not agree with them, doesn't mean that they are wrong or they have ulterior motives. If there were only one RIGHT way, who would get to decide what that way was???

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Owen, I don't know squat about batteries, buy all my components from the sponsors and like Mike's answers ( maybe that's because he seems so happy to be retired!!!) but your set up doesnt seem bad to me. Tape on those guides and go try it!! The only thing that you might change is to drop a 10 and use another 8. I love simple spiral questions, it's so simple that it must have deeper meanings, it's got to be difficult to set up, there must be more to it, HUH????? It's SIMPLE.

And in3 months, I'm going to be just as retired as Mike!!!!

Grant, you are going to LOVE it!! I was skeptical at first (I loved my job) and was really apprehensive but I now I don't know how I EVER found time to go to work!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Hiya Grant,,,,,
yeah, it might work OK as setup. I still think it sounds like a large area unsupported, in the backbone of the rod, for something that may get into something of size. This is the one negative I see in the spiral wraps, and so working to counter it is worth doing. Closing up the spacings, and lowering the guides are what can be done to lessen the negative. Probably makes no difference at all on most rods. The heavier the tackle and the more heavily you stress your equipment, the more the concern.

Oh,,, and get your batteries at Costco. :-)

Thanks guys,
DIdn't realise I was going to open such a can of worms :-)
Next time I'll stick to questions about politics & religion.

I went back at relooked at it taking into consideration the advise from ALL of the repondents here.
I must have moved those guides a hundred times to see what effect all your various advise had.
I also spoke to the guy I bought the components off (who is a sponsor here).

I have made some changes to bring more load to bear in the butt, but nothing too dramatic.

In the end I decided "this is an Owen Dare custom rod", not someone elses clone.
So it'll sink or swim on that basis (Litterally if it doesn't work) ;-)


cheers,
Owen

Chris,
I think that you are in error when you say that there is no load on the rod when the line touches the guide at 90 degrees and that there is only a load on the rod when the line touches the guide at either 0 or 180 degrees and I think that maybe this is the source of at least some of the disagreement. I will argue that there can be a load on the rod when the line hits the guide at any angle. All that changes is the direction of the force or load.

I would be very curious how anyone can say that any guide on the rod would not be loaded, at least , when fighting a fish or even hooked on the bottom. Any time there is a load on the line, it wants to form a perfectly straight line from the top of the reel spool to the point of the load. If the rod is flexed as in fighting a fish, and assuming that vertically straight above the reel is 12 oclock, then the first guide out will be loaded at somewhere between 3 and 5 oclock or 7 and 9 oclock (depending which side the 90 degree guide is on) the 90 degree guide will be loaded between 8 to 10 or 2 to 5 oclock ( again dependant on which side) and the first 180 degree guide bettween 1 and 3 or 9 and eleven.

If it is meant that no load means no load applied to the blank because it is not at 90 degrees to the center, it still is a load even if transfered through the guide wrap. Now the psi applied to the first three guides would be slightly less becaust of more line to ring contact, but the load is still on the guide. I can only see that changing if the rod was pointed straight at the load perfectly parallel to the line. Then the three guides closest to the reel would have all the load.