I am building a g loomis 6 foot 8-14 lb gl3 casting rod and am having trouble finding the appropriate spots to put my guides... i have used 8 already and still the line can touch the blank in some spots... has anyone else found this problem with light rods... has anyone bulit a rod similar to this that could tell m how many guides they used...

your help would be appreciated..

Cheers Mark...

Goodoo Dreaming

Mark,
With normal casting guides it is impossible to put enough guides on the rod so that under heavy flexing of the rod the line will not touch the rod without using so many guides that the rods performance will be seriously compromised by the weight of too many guides. Just a couple of extra guides can have a significant effect on the rod performance, the rods responsiveness, damping, ease of casting, maximum casting distance, and the rods sensitivity will all be affected.
In the past the rationale for using enough guides to keep the line off of the rod when the rod is heavily flexed has been to prevent friction between the line and the rod. But this does not really hold water because when the rod is heavily flexed and the line is touching the rod the line is not normally moving. If the line is not moving there cannot be any friction between the line and the rod.
When casting and the rod is at the maximum deflection the line is not moving. The line starts to move as the rod straightens and the lines maximum velocity is when the rod is virtually straight. There is no condition when casting when the rod is at the maximum deflection that the line is moving so there is no friction between the line and the rod.
When fighting a fish the rod tip should be dropped when the fish is applying the maximum force so as to not high stick the rod and so that the load on the rod tends to move toward the butt of the rod. So under these conditions the rod is not at the maximum deflection and the line should not be touching the rod and therefore there is no friction between the line and the rod. Normally when reeling in the fish the rod is pumped, while pulling up on the fish and the rod is heavily flexed the line is not moving, the line is retrieved and moves when the rod tip is dropped and not as heavily flexed so again when the rod is at the maximum deflection the line is not moving and so there is no friction between the line and the rod.
It depends somewhat on the blanks action and how long a handle you are building but I would think that 8 guides on that 6 foot blank is probably at least one and maybe two too many and you certainly do not want more guides than 8.

You loose casting distance when the line touches the blank as as stated above, that rarly happens on the cast itself, it happens on the retrieve where a little friction added to that overridding load isn't noticable. Plus when doing a static test you should only bend the blank for 1/3 its over all length so your 6' foot rod should be bent approx 2 feet, and I bet with 8 guides its not touching the blank then, at that amount of flex you can place the 1st guide from the tip 4-5 inches away and still not touch the blan.

that seems to make sence i think.. lol... i think i mite have fixed the problem... i removed one guide so now i have 7 and to counter this i moved the butt guide up bout another 10 cm... will this have a more adverse effect than having the extra guide on... i did some test casting and it seems to go very well..

Cheers Mark

Mark,
It sounds to me like you are in the ball park now. If when you test cast you watch for a standing wave in the line between the reel and the first guide and adjust the position of the first guide to minimize this standing wave you will not have any problem with the line touching the rod during casting. If the blank is a fairly fast action with a stiff butt section you have quite a bit of latitude where that first guide goes. I would start off with it about 24 inches from the reel and then move it out away from the reel in small increments, about 1/2 inch at a time, to minimize the standing wave.
You are setting the rod up for a particular reel and line. Keep in mind that if you change to a reel and/or line that is significantly different the standing wave can come back on you so don't worry about getting it perfect.

thanks for your help harry and Chris.. i have the butt guide at about 26 inches and this is as good as i can get it without the line touching the blank... hope all goes weel in the wrapping and finishing process now..
Cheers
Mark
Goodoo Dreaming

thanks for your help harry and Chris.. i have the butt guide at about 26 inches and this is as good as i can get it without the line touching the blank... hope all goes weel in the wrapping and finishing process now..
Cheers
Mark
Goodoo Dreaming

sorry about the double post

If you were to measure the distance on most Mfg's production rods the 1st guide would average approx 23" in front of the reel seat, and adjust ing the 1st guide so the line does not touch the blank is the most critical adjustment, Then on the other end moving the 1st guide back to 4-5" away from the tip crowds the remaning gudes closer and should be adeduite. And when test casting lots of time the difference in any guide adjustments have a minimal effect on casting distance BUT like a bait caster where the differecnces will show up most is in the same situation where a baitcaster is hardest to operate and require an educated thumb namely, with light lures casting into the wind, then any changes in casting performance are often magnified

In my opinion, moving stripper guides 26", and beyoynd, the front of the reel seat can have negative effect as far as casting performance is concerned, in the situation when one casts with the presence of the side-wind. The long distance between the reel front and the stripper guide causes the guides to lost some of their channelizing effect and, as a result, side-wind forms a baloon of the line - between the reel front and the stripper guide. It may lead to birds-nest forming as the line looses stability. With the stripper guide reasonably closer, the line will be channelized quicker, an casting performance will be improved (this reffers to the side-wind situation)

Number and spacing of the guides, and stripper guide placement in particular, depend greatly on the blank charcteristics and the number / type of the stripper guide. Some of my observations: On the same blank you will put LN #10 and LN #12 stripper guide at different lenght. You will put the same, say LN #12 stripper guide in a different way an two different blanks - if blank is stiff at the butt section, it is easier to move further towards the tip with the stripper guide ; if the blanks bends under the load more towards the grip (say: moderate action blank) you can not move stripper guide that far towars the tip, because under load the line between the reel front and the stripper guide will touch / slip from the blank, or, worst, will cut your foregrip. In my opinion, line slap is the "less evil" in tip section, when the blank is thinner, than in mid/ butt section when the blank is thicker, and the line (especially braided) will be rubbing the blank slipping left-right-left from one side of the blank to another when fighting the fish, even when the line is not moving.

There are many other thing to consider, e.g. guide ring size & blank diameter & torque force relation, stress distribution etc.

I like Chris Carp observation about moving the first guide from tip-top more towards the bottom of the blank. Most charts reccomend placement of such guide at 8cm (3.15") for the tip-top. In none of the static deflection tests I've done so far I have found the need tp place this guide closer than 4" for other than "looks" reasons. It might sound like a little difference but I believe it is a difference at the tip section.








Best regards,
Pavel

Pawel,
I think that where guides are positioned on a blank, and the number and the size of the guides used involves a number of trade offs or compromises and I don't think that there is any perfect way of doing it.
I have never had wind be a significant problem except when attempting to cast into the wind. But maybe you are right that with a strong cross wind and light braided line it could be a problem.

Harry,

I should have indicated that, you are right - I was referring to light baitcasting fishing, with thin braided line

Best regards,
Pavel