Hey guys,

some of you might remember about a week ago I posted that I had bad grooving on my recoils. This rod was used for float fishing steelhead and kings. Thought you might like to hear an update of sorts.

Talked w/ Gary Schaefer of G Loomis and Alan Gnann of REC about the issues and this is what I found out, and what they had to say....

According to Gary, in the history of putting recoils on GLX's there have been about 10-15 warranty claims for grooved recoils. Some of you might wonder how this stacks up against SIC's. Well, there are more warranty claims on SIC's than recoils so kinda ran into a dead end there...

Gary put me in contact w/ Alan, and I spoke w/ him on the issue. Said he had never ran into the issue that I had, where the guides had been on there for such a short time (8months) and have this happen. We talked about the conditions that I fished in and when I noticed the "drift" issues, the pieces started to come together.

When I started to have issues w/ the drifts I had been fishing in very cold conditions. On most of the mornings when I started fishing, the air temps were in the single digits, and never getting above freezing. Alan stated that the recoils would behave like most of us are used to seeing in temps from 40-180 deg far. Outside of those ranges testing had not been done. Those cold temps were looking like that would be the issue and that would also explain why Gary hadn't seen many claims too. There aren't too many bass and walleye anglers fishing in those types of conditions!

Not only that, but the water that absorbs into nylon mono could also be a cause in the cold, as the ice could be the reason..

To make a long stroy short, basically we're going to focus our efforts on figuring out if the cold is what had caused that. There are a few ways to go about this, and I'll keep youguys posted on what is found out.

I think for right now, most of you guys are safe, unless you fish in that extreme cold.

Tim

I've been following these thread close. I recently ordered a bunch of recoil guides to use on my next three rods. I was getting worried until this post. Thanks for the update.

Let's fish,
Chris

Thanks for the update Tim.

Looks like I won't be having that problem, living in sunny Queensland in Australia.

Tim, after your original post, there were several who chimed in with the same problem concerning the Recoil guides. I don't think everyone was fishing in freezing weather.

I've never used them, but have seen them on several rods, and as light as they are, I would have to think they give up something in the way of durability. IMHO of course.

Regards......Doug@
TCRds

It makes sense that the cold could be a factor. I use Recoils on my bonefish fly rods, including the tip, and have never had any grooving, despite using gelspun backing.

Our water is pretty warm though...

I fish Salt water on Cape Cod with a T&T Horizon II rod that I built with recoil snake guides. No problem at all with grooving. However , I'm not using Recoil Stripping guides. I use PacBay Titanium coated guides with Sic rings . I've had the stainless steel tip top groove because of the sand ect. and also swtiched to Titanium tops with no problem. Bill

I for one have a very hard time with belieiving cold to be the factor. As a Walleye fisherman from Minesota I know plenty of anglers that fish in cold conditions. Including myself. Recoil guides or just plain wire guides on ice rods. I know many builders that use Recoils on ice rods.

I will also say that my Recoil grooving incident was a customer that lived in Arizona. And it was in the summer when he noticed the grooving. I'm sure those guides never saw temps below 70.

I'm going to need to see some test data to convince me that cold plays even the smallest roll in the hardness of a wire guide.




........................................



Better to have and not need than to need and not have.

I wouldn't go by those warranty numbers. Please take into account the number of fishermen who regularly crack ring inserts from abuse, accidents or wahetver else. That takes care of those SiC returns on warranty. SiC was never marketed as "stepped-on proof", and neither are any ceramic guides. They are marketed as hard, smooth, wear resistant and heat dissipating. Recoils? No insert to crack, pop out or break. Simple reasoning. Now Ti alloy is nowhere near as hard, and with them said to be maintenance free I don't think they'd get inspected for damage on the same schedule as a ceramic ring. These rings that are grooving also seem to be restricted mostly to tip-tops, whcih see a lot more pressure on the line, concentrated on a smaller area than, say, the stripper guides/butt guides on fly and spin rods. Nothing yet mentioned about the intermediate guides out towards the tip.

The grooving issue is not new, is not restricted to superbraids, having been mentioned with mono/fluoro too. Much remains to be revealed, 'cos there ain't much photographic evidence to support the claims, only hearsay and allegations. Nothing against those making the claims, but we can't see them as you can. I have heard of the tips grooving from flylines, mono and braid, and have also heard others say the Recoils do fine, under the same circumstances. I don't think it's the cold at all, 'cos these claims come from far and wide. So show us some pics. In the meantime, the only real thing about Recoils that irks me is they look like cheaper wire guides (which I have seen groove) and they are noisy as all @#$%& due to them being so flexible. I suggest if you're gonna bring up an issue for others to weigh in on, please provde supporting evidence, and give us the facts!!

You guys really make me feel good now that I built my Talon 13' float rod with Recoils - and I used a #8 guide for the tip top as well!. I was wondering if we're really misusing the Recoils? Most spinning/casting rods use some form of ceramic ring for guides for the mono line that can generate a bit more heat whereas the traditional fly rods used snakes (similar to Recoils) for the larger diameter and softer fly lines. If mono were used on a fly rod with snakes, would the same grooving be possible?

And one of the previous posts indicated most of the grooving was in the tip top and someone else indicated using a ceramic on just the tip. If I find any grooving on my tip I'll put a ceramic on it, but the #8 Recoil spinning guide on my tip actually has TWO turns of wire compared to the single wire turn on a standard Recoil tip. If drifting causes the grooving, it could be the sharper line angle at the tip compared to the line just "passing through" the lower guides. Also, I use Siglon F on my pin which is suppose to be polymer coated (could be just marketing scheme) for a smoother line - I'll find out more during winter Steelheading. I'd hate to have to rebuild one of my finest projects ever!

I am with Matt and Ted and have a very hard time believing that the low temperature has much if anything to do with the grooving of the recoil guides. It seems more logical to me that it is a function of the amount of use, the type of line, how clean the line is and that the titanium is not as hard as ceramic. There is an additional factor that may be contributing as well and that is the surface area that the line is in contact with is much smaller with a recoil or any wire guide as compared to a ceramic guide so the friction is going to be a good deal higher.

Guide wear comes down to two main factors. The location of the guide material with regard to the hardness scale and the surface area of the line contact as Emory states. Heavily used rods prior to the use of ceramics generally had wear grooves on the tip guide regardless of the rod type and line material. You don't have to look through many early bamboo fly rods to see that wear.

Stan Grace
Helena, MT
"Our best is none too good"

I have never used Recoil Guides, but here is something that may be worth considering...Everyone says they "sing" , I am assumeing that is on the retrieve. Is this resonance caused by the line "scrubbing" over the flexable guides ? ( like running your wet finger around the rim of a wine glass )
If that be the case, then the "vibrating" guide would be getting a thousand times more wear on one retrieve than it would if it were being pulled over the more common stiffer guide with more surface area. Would be like a real fast fileing motion. I that a possibility ??????

Jay

My Recoil strippers sing when a bonefish is taking out backing, but they don't groove.

Hey Guys,

I do feel it is a very good possibility it was the cold, but I don't have certainties YET. If you had the explaination of the material that is used in recoils ( like I did), I think you guys would see how its a very strong possibility, BUT until the tests are done, I can't give any concrete evidence of anything, other than the fact that I had grooving. This material is like nothing out there, and it is a strange cutting edge concept. Ted, you want pics of what, the grooving?? Think you know what that would look like. The location of the grooving suggests it happend when fighting fish, as I use a lot of side pressure, and all of the grooving is on the side of the guides. There is no indication (TIM) that it happened while merely "fishing".

The machine that they test these guides on runs continuously for hours and hours to days and days, through dirty water, clean water, warm waters and with different mono and synthetic lines BUT THEY NEVER ran the line through darn near frozen waters (31deg far.). This should be a very telling week, as they are getting single digit weather at the test station. We all got lucky that the weather is this cold, as now if those grooving results can be duplicated this will be very telling. I personally am also building three other float rods, one w/ a "new' recoil to see if I too can duplicate that failure. Then there is always the possibility that I got a bunk set of guides.

Matt, the fish that you are fishing fight nothing like the fish that I am fishing--not taking a shot at your fish, but its a big deal if a walleye takes drag at all, and its nothing to get multiple 20-50yd runs out of the same fish when steelhead fishing. Not bragging again, but I when this all might have occured, I had a couple of 32 fish-days in a row, a few teen fish days, and many of the fish were over 8lbs, a few in the teens, and one about 20lbs. There is a size difference than what you are catching, and the fight is different. Also, when I have had grooving on SIC, I noticed because it cut my line and/or frayed it. Well, I can say that recoils when grooved don't do any damage to line....

One last thing guys. You can't ignore the benefits of recoils. From casting, to hooksetting, to ect, to ect. I guarantee REC will find the root cause. Who would want a troublesome product out there? No one wants to see that, from the manufacturer, to the dealer, to the rod builder, to the consumer. When it comes down to it, I am an angler first, rod builder second. I used these guides because I saw the benefits, I wanted a great rod. I also helped Loomis design its future set of GLX float rods. I suggested heavily that recoils be put on the rods, waay before I knew Alan Gnann. I don't want something to be a disaster, so I did what I could, and also told you guys. I could have waited til I found out what the tests provided and then post a follow-up, but I wanted to let you guys know and make decisions for yourselves.

Consider all things, and see what you guys can draw from what I have told you and what you have "heard".

Keep you posted as I know....

Tim

Okay, yes, I do have a pretty good idea of what the grooving would look like. I commend the effort you're taking to get to the bottom of the problem. SiC doesn't groove though, it cracks and chips, and the sharp edges are what cut your line. Add up vibration, heat from friction on a small area, and cold guides, and there may be a link somewhere. But what about others fishing in conditions closer to REC's testing conditions, who have experienced the same problem? What I should have said is there's likely to be a lot more to it. My apologies for ruffling feathers.

Ti Alloy is shape memory metal. Going back in some metallurgy from days in engineering at college, there are critical transformation temperatures (upper and lower), above and below which different crystalline structures exist. The changes between these are reversible and linked with change in dimensions (deformation). The bit on Ti shape memory alloys mentions transition temperatures of about 115 deg. Celsius (for NiTinol). Rapid temperature rise from friction on a cold metal? Crystalline structure often varies with rates of change of temperature (especially cooling).

TIM RUMLOW...

When can us "Floaters" expect to see the new G. Loomis float rods. A G. Loomis rep friend of mine from Seattle, said it is in the works. As an ex-G.Loomis Pro-Satffer, I hope they are going to be affordable. But just hearing GLX, makes me think otherwise. Could you please email me when ya get a chance? rotkisak@ak.net...

Thanks Tim...

Paul

Anyone notice the Cabela's rods with recoils all have ceramic tip tops?

Tim,I have been following this thread for a while now.Any new info from REC yet? Funny I have a set of REC spinning guides ordered for my centerpin build up from Cabelas,as of 2 weeks they are still on a backorder,Hmm,wonder what thats about..Also I got my new basspro book and they use them on their new line of rods , at the bottom of the page while talking about the rec guides it says "these guides polish with time and actually get better with use"wonder whats up with that...I'll keep checking back to se if any new info comes up,as of now the pros of my using them far outweigh the cons..I hope...Ray