Hi Guys,

Lefty Kreh said (so a good friend of mine mentioned) that you should have bigger stripping guides on a fly rod, as this will make casting easier, as the line runs through the guides easier. My question is, is this so? Building a few 9 foot, 5 weight fly rods (4 piece), and instead of putting # 12 and #10 stripping guides, would it be a little better to put a #16 and # 12 stripping guide on?
Or maybe just one #16 (noticed 4 piece rods usually only have one stripping guides, and 2 piece rods have 2 stripping guides usually).

Thanks for all help
Mike
Johannesburg, South Africa

I have no scientific experiment to fall back on but the difference between a size 12 or a size 16 stripper would be very minor in my judgement. The 16 would perhaps keep the line slightly further from the rod but that could also be accomplished by using a higher frame 12. I use size 10 single foot strippers in combination with a size 8 or 10 line tamer guide on my own 5 weights without sacrificing casting distance.

Stan Grace
Helena, MT
"Our best is none too good"

I have done it both ways and do not notice any real improvement in going to the larger stripper guide. Lefty can generate a lot more distance than me anyway so what helps him may not help me as much. I think the 16 is too big for that application. What does seem to help is getting the line more away from the rod. So maybe a high frame 10 or 12. I use the choke guide for most of my rods. I don't know if it increases the distance, but it sure seems to tame the line down quicker and gets it to flow nice and smooth.

Casting technique in how you handle the line outside of the stripper guide plays a factor too. If you are sloppy with the line, a high big stripper might do more good than if you are sorta neat in the way you handle and feed the line.

And finally and not least for me is the reason I build 4 piece rods is so that they are easy to break down and travel with and it is a real pain getting a 16 mm guide in a bag and tube. My favorite rod has 2 either 10 or 12 mm cerment high frame guides for stripper and I don't think it needs any more size. It is a 6 wt and it shoots just fine.

Do this, start with a size 10 and make a few casts. Then move up to a 12 and do the same. Then try a 16, then a 20. At the point where distance no longer improves, lock in the smallest size that gave you the longest casts.

I do recommend using a higher frame guide, such as an SVSG spinning style as it tends to reduce line slap on the blank in some instances.

The fly line coming from your hand or off the boat deck isn't revolving as it is on a spinning reel, thus a large diameter guide is rarely necessary.

............

Good point about the fly line not revolving as it does off a spinning reel, makes a lot of sense. I think I'll go for the higher frame guide, but stick to 10 and 12.

Thanks for all the good pointers guys, really appreciated.

Mike

Just a few suggestions gleaned from a lot of reading (and experimenting) over a number of years:

1) Tom's idea of trying small-to-large guides is a good test
2) The heigth of the guide off the rod will make a difference. First, it determines the angle of the line coming off your hand or out of the stripper basket. Slightly higher probably won't make a difference but seriously higher will. There's a line of single-foot guides that followed an old design that provides serious heigth off the rod, but I can't remember the style or brand.
3) The spacing of the guide (distance from the front of the reel to the stripper guide) will also make a difference in the angle of the line as it comes off your hand or out of the stripper basket.

I'm not sure how much difference these factors will make but messing with the variables might prove useful. And fun, too.

Uncle Russ
Calico Creek Rods

I think Lefty's point is that the shooting line actually loops up past the stripping guide then has to turn back around and go through it, and that this is eliminated or minimized with bigger guides. He studied this on high speed film.

I follow his advice and it works very well for me. In fact, I built a Sage XP 9 ft, 4 piece, 5 wt with the 16 stripper followed by single foot guides and I love it.

However, I will add that I think the difference is negligable. Think about it... say you increase the distance 10%. Is that really all that much? Most guys are casting a 5 wt around 60-70 feet on a decent cast. A 10% increase is 6-7 feet, not all that much. Even a very good caster at 80-90 feet is only adding 8-9 feet. Most people will find it much easier to add 10% by perfecting their cast than by playing with guide sizes.

Truthfully, I think a 10% increase is a huge overestimation for a fly rod. I would be willing to put money down that NOTHING you could do would add 10% distance over the "standard" configuration on a flyrod. You could certainly lose 10% by messing with it though...

Final answer... I think it may slightly improve the efficiency and distance in a flyrod and I do it, but I think the effect is very likely overstated.

Let's look at this question from a different angle. Most people who buy custom rods want us to build them the fastest rods possible. They think that the stiffness of the rod will increse their casting distance. So we build what they want. The trouble is 90% of fly fisherman don't generate enough line speed to warrant the use of some of the higher modulas blanks. If you're fishing small mountain streams for 8 inch brook trout and only are going to be casting 30-40 feet the size of the stripper guide makes no difference. If you're bonefishing Christmas Island and casting 70-80 feet into a 25 mph wind all day yes I think the stripper guide makes a difference. As one's ability to load the rod increses so should the size of the stripper. If the size of the stripper only improved one's casting distance by 10% that extra distance we build into the rod may mean the fish of a lifetime.to someone.

"Fast" isn't the same thing as "stiff." Action and Power are two entirely different things. Loading the rod comes from having the right amount of weight (length of line) plus input from the caster. Fast action rods are not at all hard to load - they load just as easily as any other rod having any other action. But you must have the correct amount of weight on them.

..........

I think Daniel makes a very good point. Even the gathering guide that some folks like to put immediately after the stripping guide (and which does increase distance if you're using a very supple line) would be hard pressed to add a true 10%.

..........

Here are the things that seem to increase casting distance the most. This is just stuff I've noticed over the years, not from actual scientific tests or anything.

1. Clean, Stiff fly line.
2. Ultra Slick guides (SIC)
3. Longer than average distance between reel and stripping guide. I like my personal rods to be upwards of 30". Like Russ mentioned, I think it has something to do with the angle of the fly line coming into the guide.
4. High frame stripper.
5. "Collection" stripper.

Now, the one thing I didn't mention is the most obvious--good casting technique. But, that's something that we, as rod builders, have no control over. Even still, when someone has me build a "distance" rod, I can give the customer the best chance of casting a long line if I make sure the rod has the 5 things above.

Regarding guide size, my observations have been that a sz. 12 seems fine for 6, 7, and probably even 8 wt. rods (been awhile since I built an 8). On a 9 wt., sz. 16 seems to help. But again, that's all easy enough to figure out with test casting.