I realize mounting the reel and seat onto the blank and setting it up along the edge of the table to determine guide sizes is the normal starting point for the Concept method. However, since all 6 of my spinning reels have the same 4 degree upsweep, I made a template that shows where the various Fuji "Y" frame Alconite guides will fit inside this taper (same as using blank and table edge) based on the guide's height. And since a 4 degree taper is constant, the intersection guide and if using 25-16-10 guides, they will occupy basically the same distances in relationship to each other unless there is a huge difference in blank diameters. The only real differences from rod to rod would be the distance from the butt guide to the reel due to the reels's frame size and reelseat used.

Even different spool sizes on reels with the same frame on same size reelseats, the spindle that aligns with the "edge of the table" is still in the same spot so the guide sizesand spacings should be the same .

Sooooooo, a reel with a spool diameter in the 45-55mm range plus a 4 degree upsweep on spinning blanks of fairly the same size will ALWAYS have the same size guides from butt to the intersection guide - yeah or nay? And isn't there a specific set of guide sizes used that works in the majority of rod/reel combos for Salmon rods and if so, what would those sizes be? Thanks.

Quite often yes - the size and locations of those first few guides down to the intersect point should remain the same provided the reel seat diameter, reel and butt guide to reel spool distance is the same.

On a longer rod, the only thing that would change would be the number of running guides.

............

Tom,

sorry for joining - without being asked - but...

Would you really wrap the same way, 9'0" spinning blank and 6'6" spinning blank? And the only difference would be the number of runnnig guides? That would mean, really, - a lot - of running guides on the longer one...

Best regards,
Pavel

I am awful new to the area of spinning rods but I am dealing with this right now. I am wrapping a 8.5 ft spinning rod. It is a salt water rod and I started with a 30. I am not sure what else I have on it but once I got the line down to the blank I did go with "an awful lot of running guides". I think I got it to the blank with 4 guides and then have running guides every 8 or 9" or a little less out to the tip with that one being about 5 behind the tiptop. I think the running guides are 7mm single foot. I did some test casting and it seem to work pretty well. Reason I am posting is that I have not epoxied it yet. Would anybody be willing to comment on whether this seems a good layout or should I cut it off and try again? I don't have any distance standards to try it against, etc.

Pawvel,

Yes, the relationship between the reel and the butt guide would be the very same, so the initial guide set up would be indentical regardless of the length of the rod. You'd just add more running guides. Remember, the running guides will be small and light, so the difference in this method and the old cone-of-flight method is even more pronounced on a longer rod.

Now if you're using a different size reel, or much larger line, the butt guide size may need to be altered, which would then alter the rest of the guides as well. But, if everything is the same, the guide set up would be as well.

..........


Bill,

You're on the right track. Usually, just 3 or 4 guides are all that's needed to get the line down to the intersect point. The only thing you might do is test cast with larger (or smaller) running guides just to see if it makes any difference. But it sounds to me like you're going about it the right way.

.............

Thanks Tom, this was my thought process but I just wanted some confirmation. One question though, if I had a reel spool that was 55mm (and I assume that's measured at the largest diameter where the line uncoils off of the spool's lip), that would put the butt guide reference diameter exactly between a 25mm and a 30mm ring. The 25mm guide will be further from the reel but the "line coils" during casting should be smaller at that distance compared to a 30mm guide that would be closer to the reel and those "line coils" would be larger. Is one butt guide setup better than the other - smaller and further versus larger and closer ? Thanks.

Tom,

thank you very much for explanation. Frankly speaking I am still little bit concerned about the increased line-guide friction caused by so many small, single foot running guides, and, as a result, shortened casting distance. I think I'll give a try both soultions in field, I am a kind of visual man :)

Best regards,
Pavel

It sounds like that I'm currently building a similar rod to what Bill Moschler described. Using a 2000 series reel with a 50mm spool. I'm using the Batson VS3 guides, sizes are 25, 12, 10 with SF fly 8's as running guides. It seems to static test well and I stood out in the snow this afternoon test casting and performed OK.

My comments/questions are: It sounds like quite a jump going from 25 to 12 but when using the table for placement it seemed that the distance between 25 to a 16 was too close. Are there any negative effects or better configuration?

Bill mentioned running guides being 8 to 9 inches apart. The library article says running guides should be at least 4" and no more than 5". I have 7 running guides at 5" apart.

Mike

Tom,

Have built a couple rods where I wanted to utilized the concept system for mazimun casting distance. Have been very pleased w/ the results that I have gotten using the system. What I wanted to comment on was the size of your choke selection.

One of the "old" rules that I still adhere to to some extent, was if you were in a predicament like the one that you are in now you would consider the line diameter and hardness of the line that you would be running on that rod/reel. For example, if you were to run a "heavier' and harder line on average through that rod, I would go w/ a larger guide, a 30 in your case. If you were to run a thinner and softer line all the time or on average, you would run the smaller 25. I am guessing you are running Shimano reels as this is somewhat of the same situation I have run into, "in between" spool sizes. Running superlines off the reel w/ a 25, I have had no problems whatsoever. This has been mainly on 10.5' rods, w/ repeated casting using spoons (twist).

Also want to comment on your chart. Don't think its a good idea. Although you are right by saying that the reel angle doesn't change, that doesn't mean the reel seat doesn't, in a couple of ways. You might always use a 25 16, 10, but not the same initial spacing. And handle sizes and lengths change ( I would think). Just some things to keep in mind...also would like to add, I used 25, 16, 7's out, and although there is a drastic change, has worked out beautifully. Naturally I would like to see more of a gradual taper, but take what the reel gives you....
Tim



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2007 10:50PM by Tim Rumlow.

For me, depending on the reel & handle config I use Fuji Concept 25, 16, 8 then 4 or 5 size 6 or 7 fly guides depending on rod length. That is with 6.5' spinning rods for bass & walleye. I also use 20, 12, 8. Occasionally I need a 8L.

Tim Rumlow - who are you talking to? I'm the one with the chart - not Tom. And I don't see anything wrong with it. On a 4 degree upsweep, a certain size guide is going to be in the exact same spot every time irregardless of the reel/reelseat used or the length of the rod - and I did reference reel frame and reelseat size in my post. It sure helps with ordering the size guides I need instead of having to buy extras. I'm still looking for an answer to "smaller and further versus larger and closer butt guide to the reel". Thanks.

Yeah, sorry Tim, meant you....

Well, if it works for you then by all means go for it, not here to stop you from doing what works for you....

best of luck, TIm

Tim C - 30 vs 25 - you will have to test cast for yourself to find out which one is better if you are looking for distance. If you are looking for weight savings alone, then the 25 would be lighter but the rod may balance slightly differently with the 30 vs 25 weight and placement. What does better mean to you? Lighter? Casts further? Recovers quicker? Fits in a rod tube? Fits inside a car or truck? Only you can decide what is better for you. Personally, I think you should be building spiral wrapped baitcasters instead of those spinning rods because they are better. The reels are lighter, the guides are lighter, I have more control over the fish, they cast further for my applications, the guides weigh significantly less, they balance better with reels, etc.