<<Try this again. Had a lttle trouble with the system not liking my real name nor my handle. Posted under Comedie yesterday, but post was later purged>>

Maybe 30 years back I built some rods for myself. After hearing about acid wraps, have decided I have to try that. For now, ocean bottom rods. 3 projects.

Project 1: rewrap a factory Daiwa Eliminator, 6'6" fiberglass, 20-60lb, with Aftco stripper and tip. Scored 2 sets of PacBay SIC boat guides at a really good price on @#$%& to use in the rewrap. The 2 guide sets I have are 20.16,12,12,10,10,10,,,, not including tip. Does replacing the 16 with a 12 from my other set make sense, as the first 180 guide? Start wth the factory guide positions, using velcro cable wraps to toy with the positions and see how that works.

Projects 2 & 3 are basically one that became 2 because I had a Visa card in my hand :-). Two 7' 20-40lb blanks. One Amtak e-glass, the other composition Lamiglass. Goal is a somewhat lighter bottom rod. Have a bunch of PacBay hialoy turbos coming for these, with lots of extras. Will wrap acid wrap as well. Velcro wraps again to play with the spacing. I noted in the specs that the PacBay turbo guides are about as low a guide as you can get. So,,,, 20,12,12,12,10,10,10,,, or 20,12,12,10,10,8,8. Seven guides not including bumper or tip,,,, or is 8 not a bad idea, especially for the composition blank to more evenly spread load?

Common to all 3 projects: Have noted talk of single foot fly guides for the bumper, because they are the lowest. Looks to me like the BacBay turbos are the next step up in height, and should be a lot more rugged on a boat rod. I can imagine the bumper being somewhat more than 90 degrees and/or a size larger, to compensate for heavy rod loading. will try 8, 10, 12 sizes in mockup, with 10 or 12 sounding right for now.

Are all these rods still in double wrap territory? Single A under, single D over? By going spiral, is there any convincing need for a double over wrap? I am probably going to be toward the upper limit on these blanks wth braid.

Is anyone using spars anymore? Minwax Clear Shield in particular, which is their UV improved spar that actually lists fiberglass as a target? More coats, but would seem like it is user friendly and protective. Was thinking a few swipes on the blanks, then one on the underwrap, multuple coats on the overwraps, and lastly a light drop in each tunnel. Anything disasterous come to mind wth that plan?

Basically going for fishing tools rather than art. Black everything. But yesterday I did somehow wander into a sewing store next to Home Depot and thought the Sulty holographic in Arctic Black or Dark Pewter might add a few nice finish bands against the black. Couldn't decide, so I bought both. colors :-)

BTW,,, a big thanks to Scott at Mudhole who put together my startup kit. Mail is slow this time of year, so I'm still waiting for all the toys.

The Bumper guide carries no side load so it doesn't require being heavy duty. It should sit at 90 to 100 degrees. And it should be added onto, not as part of, the rest of the guide spacing. It's not a transition guide. Just keep it low and close to the blank and the rest won't matter.

You do not need all those guide sizes. Once you're under the rod, you can make the all the guides the same size. In some cases, with some blanks, the first 180 degree guide should be slightly smaller than the rest of the guides from there on out. You might use an 8 for the first 180 guide and then 10's on out. This ensures you get some load on the first 180 guide. In some cases, you won't unless you keep it a tad smaller than the rest.

I don't see much advantage to using spar varnish or urethane on the wraps. Too many great epoxy coatings out there today. If I wanted something different, I'd most likely use PermaGloss for it's extreme toughness and clarity. But it will take many coats to equal the depth of epoxy.

...........

Dave,

What I would do is to cut the number of guide sizes down to three (no more than four). There is nothing to be gained by running through all the guide sizes. The "bumper" guide is not figured in the guide placement configuration. For the sake of discussion (the guide sizes I mention are JUST grabbed out of the air for illustration) I would go with, say, 16 butt, 12 first 180 guide and 10's the rest of the way. After you static test and spacing is complete, place your bumper guide at 90 degrees (either side) exactly halfway between butt and first 180 guide.The bumper guide is soley to keep the line of the blank and shouldn't incur much, if any, stress. As far as the fly type guide, I'm not experienced with that type of rod but I use them on musky rods all the time with no problem. I would definately do a Forhan wrap on any single foot guides, thouh!

Number of wraps is pretty much personal preference. Some do double, some don't. How much abuse will the rod be taking?? Can't think of anything wrong with spar, but with today's finishes, I wouldd go with Threadmaster

Oops!!! Tom and I were typing at the same time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/24/2006 12:18PM by Mike Barkley.

Thanks Tom.
Yes the loading on the first 180 guide, and to reduce the transition angle was exactly what I had in mind in cannibalizing my second SIC set for a 12 to replace the 16. Got a good deal on these PacBay SIC boat guides, but they are high.

I understand,,,, bumper is not a 'guide', but a blank protector. So I am not accomodating it in guide spacing other than to perhaps ensure the guides on either side of the bumper are near each other.
I know the bumper shouldn't load, but I actually have had this rod pretty well bent at least once this year. I straightened a 5/0 hook fighting whatever the heck was swimming at the end of my line. Was big and brown, which was as close a view as I ever got at it. Big ling or cab I think. Anyway, even with the close spacings, and in the backbone, I suspect I may have had enough bend in there to give a hypothetical small bumper some load. Guess I will let the heavy static test lead me to what is smallest.

So far as the Clear Shield urethane idea,,,, well I'd consider epoxy. I have no drier tho, which I was advised you really want/need with epoxy. I am also thinking to give the blank 2 lght coats before building. And by using the same finish for everything, I'd guess I at least theoretically get a better bond between the layers. But yeah, I'd get no any real advantage going with the Clear Shield beyond just being more user and equipment and shopping friendly to me. Now if a drier isn't really needed, I can revisit the epoxy thought.

On the permagloss idea, I was half considering that for the blank coats. But I wonder if a hard finish is really desirable on a boat rod that gets banged about more than it should. A softer, thicker, finish might actually protect the underlying rod structure better. Sorta like why car bumpers are designed to crush and spread load, rather than make of steel I-beams. Am I off there?

Still waiting for your book to come in the slow Holiday mail. Try and put together some kinda wrapping jig while waiting. Tons of info in these fora though too.

Cheers..... Dave

Dave,

You don't need a dryer!! Tom, and many others, do not use them. I brlieve that I get a much better finish when turning by hand. I usually apply liberally with a "custom spatula" from McDonalds (individually wrapped) and get the whole area covered. When it starts to sag on the bottem, I remove the sags and rotate rod 180 and let sag again, removing excess. I do this for about an hour or so. With Threadmaster, it is usally set enough in an hour or so to stop turning (check to make sure though)

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Thanks Mike. While not a HEAVY saltwater rod, it is fairly stout for the 20-60lb one. I run 65lb braid on it, with a 40lb Yo-Zuri leader. TLD30 on it, so I think a 16 may be pushing it, or would force me to go further from the reel. Will see how the path looks from top of reel to first 180 guide I guess. The two 20-40lb rods I want to build from scratch I will probably be able to downsize the stripper more easily since the reels I have in mind there are somewhat lower, as will be the guides. On the 20-60lb, I will use the PacBay SIC B guides, while the 20-40lb rods will get PacBay hialoy turbos.

My thought on the bumper guide being either the oft mentioned single foot fly. or a PacBay turbo has nothing to do with the fish. More to do with getting banged around enroute and on a charter boat. Was able to find the PacBay specs easily,,, for a size 10 example, lower ring height (when given) and overall height:
Model F single foot fly: unknown & 12.6mm
Model FX single fly foot: unknown & 15mm
Model N 2 foot fly stipper: 4.6mm & 14.9mm
Model RB turbo: 5.0mm & 18.7mm
Model DP Aero: 6.0mm & 16.5mm
Model B boat: 9.0mm & 17mm.

The turbo has exagerated height specs due to construction, but the low ring height is what matters I think. Compares pretty favorably to the N (which from overall height looks quite compatable to the FX). While not given, I'd guess the F to have the lowest ring height at perhaps 3.5mm-ish. To my eyes, those turbo guides look like a good strength to height trade.
Given how they are constructed, I also am wondering how easly the turbo can be rebent to give an even lower aspect, and perhaps a more ovoid ring section presented to the line (effectively lowering the height for a larger potential area). Also may be able to get it down a little more by thinning the leg thickness a bit with lapping the bottom againt the blank wrapped with wet-n-dry sandpaper.

Just my possibly irrational beginner's thoughts.

Hey Dave,
Where are you catching those Lings and Cabs? Cabs are my favorite fish to catch off the jetties in Humboldt Bay.

Let's fish,
Chris

Ahhh,,,, drier optional! Well then, I might have to reconsider my thought then. Already picked up a qt of the Clear Shield, but I guess I can put some on a dowel along with some other options, sit it outside and see how it fares.

Question on the epoxy. Is this stuff lke the epoxies used in RC planes, or are they something softer, less adhesive, and less mechanically strong? Seems like you could use carbon fiber tape & epoxy to wrap the guides, without all that winding. Yeah,,, my mind wanders. :-)

Chris..... I'm in the SF area. I lke to go out of Half Moon Bay. CA rules this year limited us to 180ft max depth, and only 6 months of season. Big lings are usually deeper. Out at the Farralon Islands they had a good ling season. Next year we supposedly get a reprieve to 240ft, so hoping for bigger stuff. In the last few years with the depth limits, more and more people have switched to lighter gear. Yeah, it's more fun, but if you do get into a decent ling or something you're hosed. That 20-60lb rod I'm redoing with the TLD30 and 65lb braid is usually the heaviest thing on the party boats now. And I've hooked into a few things those lighter tackle guys would have zero chance with. When you are down next to the bottom you can't play around too much. Isn't like open water where you can play a fish until you get them off that bottom.

Dave,

They are 2 part epoxy finishes similar to casting resins. They aren't adhesives (different animal altogether) There are several good brands and everyone has their favorite. I have tried numerous but have settled on Threadmaster as, in my opinion, it is by far the best for ease of use, clarity and performance!!!!

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

I use double foot guides for Bumpers specically for their ability to absorb abuse. Legs can be carefully bent to create a lower profile.

Well Mike, think you've made at least a sale for trial purposes. Will try it out. Might have a room temperature challenge in my unheated garage. Perhaps a space heater nearby for the first hour or so will help in leveling(?).
This project just keeps growing on me it seems. I'm starting to think it won't take much push for me to pop for a power setup for winding drying now. Is that how fanatics grow in this craft?

I would not use epoxy as a blank coating - it's not designed for that. For that I would indeed use a spar urethane or PermaGloss.

........

Dave Gilberg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I use double foot guides for Bumpers specically
> for their ability to absorb abuse. Legs can be
> carefully bent to create a lower profile.

My metal skills and equipment are not great. But yeah,,,, that thought is what got me thinking on the turbos. Just start unfolding them a bit and it seems like they will lower AND create a lower overall arc aspect to the line. So long as the 'legs' and profile of the ring grind don't get in the way, should be lots of possibility.
Do you bother to heat the metal a bit before bending, when you do it?

Thanks Tom.... Clear Shield spar for the blanks it is then. Now if I do go epoxy ion the wraps, will I have any adhesion issues to the spar, after say a few days for the spar to dry/cure?

No, you'll be fine with the spar or Permagloss on the blank and epoxy finish on the wraps. Very common practice.

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

if it's stuff like flex coat lite or high build, threadmaster, etc. the term epoxy really shouldn't be used. it has thrown beginners off. a more accurate term might be thread finish. if you're planning on coating the length of the blank with a clear coating, like tom said, a spar urethane or Permagloss is the correct product.

eric
fresno, ca.

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