I'm not sure why the recent show event post was pulled. I was in the process of making a reply and something went haywire. There was nothing wrong with it - all complaints and vents are allowed here provided they are done in a civil manner. I'll put as much of it back up as I can along with my reply at the bottom.


..........


North Carolina
Posted by: Keith Cokely (---.ptld.qwest.net)
Date: December 23, 2006 06:45PM


I live on the west coast, (RURAL Oregon). What is the chance of a miserable pudknokcer like me of making it to your "HOLY GRAIL" of rod warping? How about doing it on the other coast? It will still take me 2+ hours to get to Portland but....Granted I’m new, but there are plenty of guys like me on the west coast. HOW ABOUT IT???? I am real tired of all the arrogant ppeople on the EAST SIDE dictating the industry. The WEST apparently stops at Colorado or Montana, if you read the Fly Fishing rags, and you guys are not much better. I say we secede from the “union” that obviously does not include us, and form our own COAST.



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 12/23/06 07:08PM by Moderator.

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Re: North Carolina
Posted by: Billy Vivona (---.ny325.east.verizon.net)
Date: December 23, 2006 06:48PM


Feel free to put it together yourelf, or tell one of the other lazy WEst Coasters to put it together. Until you or any of those other guys do anything, get your butt onto a plane and come out East.

This has been beat to death on a couple of sites already.

NERBS - North East Rod Builders

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Re: North Carolina
Posted by: Keith Cokely (---.ptld.qwest.net)
Date: December 23, 2006 06:56PM


I would love to hop on a plane and go. Unfortunately, I'm a poor working stiff, out hear in the middle of nothing, (well the Columbia is 5 miles down the hill). As far as I know I am the only "LAZY" coaster here! Come on ALL the good stuff is on the other side, (lake, river, and coast).

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Re: North Carolina
Posted by: Chuck Mills (---.gctel.net)
Date: December 23, 2006 06:57PM


Merry Christmas! I'll give this thread about an hour before it goes bye bye.

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Re: North Carolina
Posted by: Billy Vivona (---.ny325.east.verizon.net)
Date: December 23, 2006 07:06PM


Actually a ton of the Manufacturers are along the WEst Coast. Maybe you should seak with them and see why tehy won't put something like what you are suggesting together.

I'm gonna start blasting Fred Hall for not putting on a show in downtown BRooklyn. And if he does do it there, that doesn't mean I'll go, but it would be nice to have that option.

NERBS - North East Rod Builders

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Re: North Carolina
Posted by: Keith Cokely (---.ptld.qwest.net)
Date: December 23, 2006 07:07PM


Just venting. Didn’t mean to offend anyone. Surprised it lasted this long!
Back at ya.
Keith

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Re: North Carolina
Posted by: Bill Holsonback (---.hsd1.pa.comcast.net)
Date: December 23, 2006 07:50PM


All you have to do is make it happen out there. Thats all there is to it. Lots of hard work and dedication. It can be done if your willing to put in the effort. Best of luck.

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Re: North Carolina
Posted by: Spencer Phipps (65.197.242.---)
Date: December 23, 2006 07:52PM


You've missed 2 NW rodbuilding get togethers held at Lamiglas, in Woodland, WA. Quit being a slacker and get there next time. LOL. It will come up here when it happens. There's lots of us "other coasters" ,had maybe 75 or so last time. I had to choose between going to "the show" or my Alaska trip for the season. Alaska won out.

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....................

Posted by Tom Kirkman


Keith,

I located the event where I did based on demographics. You will never get the turn out on the west coast that you will on the east coast, because for the event to be successful, you must draw rod builders from all over the United States, not just the local geographic area. Over 50% of the U.S. population is within a days drive of the current location. That would not be true if the event was located in your area.

I would suggest this... if you feel strongly about your location being a good one, start your own event or pitch it to a show promoter in the area. But do remember that all these companies won't turn out just to support such an event. They expect to make money and so you'd better pack the hall with enough rod builders so that all the vendors make enough money to fully cover their show expenses. For a show such as the one in NC, less than 1,000 rod builders will result in a grand failure. How confident are you that you can pull in that many or more builders in your area? Or do you want me to take the risk? Sorry, I won't do it.

Jim Upton put it best. If you want to see DisneyWorld, you're going to have to travel to Florida. If you want to attend the International Custom Rod Building Exposition, you're going to have to come to North Carolina.

There are a lot of folks on the west coast who I'm sure feel just like you do. But to date, none have been willing to put their money where their mouth is. It is a sizeable monetary risk, and I can understand why everyone wants me, or someone other than themselves, to do it.

I know some have wanted to pitch it to the Fred Hall people. But, those folks might be very willing to set aside an area for a special rod building section but they are not going to spend money promoting it to the rod building public across the U.S. And thus, it will not draw well and it will result in most of the companies who show in such a thing losing money. Remember, there have been special rod building events and shows held on the west coast. None did well enough that any promoter wanted to do it again.

This year I'll spend upwards of $40,000 on the event here in NC. That's what it takes to host and promote such a large scale event so that it will be successful. Not many are willing to take that kind of risk. I can't say that I blame them.

.........



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/23/2006 08:37PM by Tom Kirkman.

Well I guess it is time for another LAZY west coaster to chime in. Hate to tell you Keith they are right we, including Me, are too lazy to put a show on out here. If Todds get together in Woodland, All the boothes at Fred Hall in Long Beach arent good enough then you need to hope on an plane and head east. There are thousands of rod builders out here. (I took over 300 email addys at Long Beach) but unfortunately no one has the time, money or drive to do a specialized show like Toms. Our loss. There were rumors that a couple major components companies were trying to set something up within the Long Beach show but I have not heard anything about it in quite some time. Again Our Loss. Attacking Toms show is the wrong approach, try putting pressure on some of the many west coast rod and components manufacturers and maybe something will get going out here.

One thing I am not sure will serve any of us well is this East vs West. There are great builders on all coasts and all the places in between. Also attacking people on a public forum might be suspect of less than appropriate attitudes. I do know when we start pointing fingers we need to see how many are pointing back at us. I know this will probably up the daily barage of anon emails I get but so be it at least I am giving someone something to do. I sure hope nobody thinks I am attacking them because I dont do that anymore (I had plenty of that in my other career) At any rate hope you all have a Merry Christmas and hopefully a more peaceful new year.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/23/2006 09:45PM by Moderator.

I didn't mind Keith's post. I'm sure many out his way have the same questions that he does. I was happy to be able to respond and hopefully explain some of the reasons why there isn't a show like this one on the west coast.

The show in NC actually draws a lot of guys from the west coast. Over 50 came in from California last year. About that many from OR, WA, ID, WY and MT.

I don't think pitching it to the manufactuers and dealers is going to do much good, though. They're going to want some indication that you can pull in enough builders to make it worth their while. When they attend and display at a show, they're paying a booth fee to do so. In exchange for the booth fee, they expect the show promoter to get his butt to work and promote the show and bring in customers for them. That's the crux of the matter. So you've got to find a promoter (or become one yourself) that is willing to put up the money and take a chance on a rod building event. Not many will.

There are a lot of rod builders out there, but the concentration or density of them is not very high. They're few and far between. Thus, to effectively promote and have something of the magnitude that will get them into their cars for a long drive or onto a plane for an expensive flight just really takes a lot of money and effort.

But, it might happen. 5 years ago there was nothing like this anywhere. Now there is. Who knows where the craft will be in another 5 years.

..............



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/23/2006 10:01PM by Tom Kirkman.

I suspect there are as many rod builders out here as anywhere else but like you say Tom it take someone to get up and promote it and put there "money where there mouth is". We dont have that and probably never will. What is a little disturbing to me is the possibility of division in a craft where we should all be pulling together for a common goal. I think that is the direction Joe is looking to go and I sure hope he is successful. The comments like "Holy Grail", "arrogant people" and Lazy coasters dont feel very good to me and really makes me feel like there are more ugly feelings going on here than have already been voiced. What is next , do we get to a point were before answering someones question we need to determine what coast they are from. I dont think so. There is are great shows and seminars everywhere and plenty of sharing information sites all with the same common goal - - to put out helpful information. Hope we can all strive for that.

Doc, you are the man . Thanks for your common sense reply . Happy holidays to all.

Robert

Well said, Doc!!!!!!!!!!!! There's a lot more that think like you than you know!

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

I've never seen any division in the craft and I don't think a few fringe elements should be considered division. 300,000 people will build a custom fishing rod this year. The vast majority of those aren't a member of anything nor do they have any allegiance to anyone or anything. I think the success of this site and the magazine is largely because they are all-enveloping endeavors that meet the needs of this large, mainstream rod building craft.

Sure, Keith used some words that sounded a little harsh. I took them as a bit tongue in cheek and from someone who is frustrated that there is no large scale show up there in the Pacific NW. I suspect I know how he feels. I hope my explanation along with some of the points you brought up will help explain to Keith and others why there aren't any other large scale events like the one in NC here. It's not because we don't care about builders all across the land, it's just that it costs a ton of money to do this sort of thing and we're catering to a market that comparitively speaking, is relatively small compared to a larger market such as general interest fishing. So, in my case, I worked the demographics at hand and in the 3 years the show has been up and running we've seen really nice attendance increases each year. The dealers all make money and are happy enough to come back. The rod builders come back too. It's a start. Like I said, who knows where we'll be in another 5 years. Maybe there will be another show like this one in another part of the U.S. by then.

.......

I'm also from California and attended Charlotte this year. WELL WORTH THE JOURNEY IN MY BOOK. And, if Keith organized one like Tom's I'd be glad to attend that one as well. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on how you look at it) we all don't live in the same place. I thought that the quality of the show fair out-weighed my inconvienence. My .02, Randy.

in a perfect world we would have a show in each region of the country and we could all attend. i have been to the show every year and each is better than the last. tom and a few others have worked tirelessly to create and promote this show. maybe if things in the rodbuilding world keep growing another show will be possible in the future. that would be good for the industry, but only if it can support it. i am fortunate to live in nc and can drive to the show. tom found a better venue than in years past and it just happens to be in high point, nc. i'm sure when people see the facilities they will marvel. the city of high point also wants us there and wants the show to be succeed. i would try to attend if the show was in timbuktu if nothing else than to see everyone. i know it is harder for many of you from far away, but it really is good seeing and meeting everyone from all over. good luck and look for those air fare deals( maybe santa will bring tickets?)

I've had the opportunity to see some of the numbers from the last Show on where the attendees were from. It's quite impressive and I'm sure Tom could ellaborate if needed. I hope I'm not out of line but I believe the first people to reserve tickets was a couple from California. I've noticed over the past years that several guys have hooked up through the boards and came together to share expenses. That might be a thought and if I could ever get the right numbers I'll have you flown in.

Don't you rod builders from the west forget the big get together graciously hosted by Lamiglas in April in Woodland Washington about 30 miles north of Portland. We had over 100 people there last year, from Oregon, Washington, Alaska, Idaho, California, Montana, a couple from Florida and one or two from Alabama and even one from North Dakota (Putter) wherever that is. There were a number of manufacturers and distributors there and there were a number of really good presentations and we all had a great time.
It may not compare to the big show in NC but it is probably the next best in terms of number of rod builders, distributors and manufacturers.

As another rural Oregonian who would like the rod builders show closer to home, I think that we probably need only one major show per year. As Tom K so eloquently stated there is considerable gold and very precious time being devoted to putting that program on. I would like to go just to meet the various people that I interact with on the forum as well as learn as much as I can in two days. I choose not to go because: I can buy a lot of rod building materials with the money it costs, I hate to travel--particularly when it requires flying, and I don't care for large crowds.

What I lose is the knowledge I could gain and sharing with people who are as addicted as I am. I think we should be happy for this event and work towards having smaller events for those like me. The Northwest Rod Builders show hosted by Lamiglas is just perfect for me. I get to meet some of you folks and talk to the reps from some of the companies about their new products. Last year I had good conversations with the folks from Batson, Pac Bay, and American Tackle.

I fear that moving the national meeeting around to different locales will destroy it. We have a really nice program and we should support it in any way we can. For those of us who want to go, we will go and for those like me, we won't. I know that means I probably will never meet many of you that I have got to know through your posts. I do lament the fact that I will not get to meet Tom Kirkman. I have communicated with Tom through posts to the forum and have sent him private e-mails to which he always takes the time to respond. Anybody this nice is a person well worthing knowing.

Just m two cents here a couple of days before Christmas as I watch a rod dry.

Mike Blomme

God Bless You Michael Blomme ! I, like you, can't go this year, but I am planning to next year.
I want to shake hands with Tom Kirkman, Mike Barkley, Cliff Hall, Bill Stevens, Mark Griffin,Doc Ski, Emory Harry, Ray Adams , and all the others on this forum (dont have room to list their names) that have helped me so much the past few months. To all I wish a Merry Christmas. And may your finish dry hard !

JBH

Alot of great comments... I have wanted to get to the show for the last three years, and just can't afford it. I'm not a poor man, just a man with other responsibilities. I live in Fontana, Ca. near Ontario where Tom had considered holding the show at one time. Boy was I disapointed when He decided it wasn't a good idea to hold the show here and that he couldn't get the response here that he does there. I totaly understand his reasoning for not having it hear, and I know what he puts in to it. I Know there is alot more to it than just the money, and I don't believe it has anything to do with being lazy. Tom has did years of research, done a ton of marketing, alot of wheeling and dealing to get great vendors, and alot of class acts for demonstration classes. His knowlage of what it takes to pull off a great show astounds me and makes me a little envious that it wasn't a little more accesable to me. He is also one of the most honest, decent people I have had the pleasure of dealing with in a long time, and would like to shake his hand when I do make it to the show. I too would love to talk with all of you who contribute to this site, have made me a more knowlageable rod builder, and consider it my misfortune that I will miss it again this year. For me to go to the show would cost me at least a couple of thousand dollars, if I cut my shopping to a minamum, and didn't bring my wife. Lord knows how much hat would cost me.LOL Lonny Bacon

As yet another rural Oregonian, I am happy to let them have their silly little rodbuilding show as long as they stay away from our 365 days a year of quality fishing. They can have their carp, bass, catfish, snakeheads, whatever... :)

That said, I went to the Charlotte show two years ago and it was an excellent setup. Learned a lot and got some great products. Didn't make it last year to either the Lamiglas or Charlotte shows, but hope to at least make the Lamiglas event this year.

I will probably not make the High Point show this February but that's because airfares run $800+ from Eugene and I don't think I would recoup that in terms of knowledge acquired or purchase savings. I would think that a move closer to a major city would make it easier financially for those of us not in the immediate area to attend...Dulles area outside of DC would seem like an ideal spot, near the airport and with a lot of convention space. Current airfare to IAD is $350, which I would definitely go for.




Scott Kinney
The Longest Cast Fly Rods
[www.thelongestcast.com]

The only reason the Rod Building Shows exist anywhere is because Tom Kirkman put his energy asnd resources into creating it. Tom has very carefully expained the practical aspects for such a show to succeed. The location is key in attracting the numbers of attendees needed for this to work. North Carolina works. I am grateful it works somewhere. I travel a long way to attend and an happy to make the sacrifice to do so. If it cost me $850 to reach the show I would not attend. No location will satisfy all. I think this discussion would have been far better without the use of any cutting remarks; whether serious or tongue-in-cheek. This Forum has an exemplary reputation for fair treatment of all issues and concerns. I suggest we all stick to the issues and present our thoughts in a civil manner. Everyone will gain.

Dave

There is no single location that will ever please everybody. The fact that the show is so very successful means that Tom has at least chosen a location that is a very good one for something like this. It's a fifteen hour drive for me but more than worth the time and expense. I can't see any wisdom and uprooting it and moving it somewhere else when it works so good right where it's at.

Anybody complaining about the location should consider that it's a heck of a lot cheaper for them to travel to the show than it would be for Tom to uproot it and bring it to them.

East & West rod builders?!? I am truly a "Tweener". I have been building for just a few years and learned so much from the friendly folks on this forum and I live in Iowa, the middle of the country. Three pertinent things happened to me this last year related in part to this particular post. I am semi retired but I do do some inservice work that takes me all over the nation. I did an inservice in Greensboro NC. Had a rental car and a little time late one afternoon. Called Tom K and asked how far High Point and his shop was from Greensboro and if he'd show it to me. He gave me directions and showed me around his fascinating shop and allowed me to pick his brain for over an hour. And this is a busy man with his hands in many fires and he was so gracious to help and show me around. This is a humble, sharp man. He is truly interested in growing the craft. Later on that year I went to the Rod Building Show and came away with more rod building friends and a ton of new rod builing info shared from master builders plus great bargains on a wide variety of equipment. Then I had a fall inservice in Sacramento. I decided to contact a rod builder(I had never met) who had helped and encouraged me many times on the internet. Ray Adams. Ray came and picked me up at my hotel and took me to his shop at his house. Met his gracious wife Tina, mother and dogs. Ray also taught and showed me numerous new skills and tricks. Gave me some extra handle cork and some small guides, Tina gave me some hand made wax, custom painted beautiful flowers for my wife. The dogs let me pet them and Ray showed me his best Steelhead hole on the river and tried out a new spiral rod he was working on. We're talking fine, friendly good people here. I sense that this could happen all ove the nation with so many rod builders. Part of the addiction process that hooks newbies is how open, helpful and friendly other rod builders (strangers) are to them. I encourage you all to network and ask and give. And if at all possible get to the Big Show.... take a notebook, a camera, your memory and some $ for the great deals. Hope to see you there.