What are your thoughts on surf rod ferrules? Do you prefer tip over butt or butt over tip and why? I have always prefered the tip over butt thinking that they are stronger. Due to a good price that I got from Richards Rod and Reel a couple of years ago, I ordered four surf rod blanks to keep in my stock and later make up some rods for winter fishing the surf for redfish. The rods came with the butt over tip ferrules. So far I have not tried the one I made. While wrapping the guides on a tuna rod, I saw my surf rod and got me to thinking.

You can make any ferrule strong, but always at some price. The tip over butt style offers the greatest leeway in design advantage. You can alter the wall thickness and diameter so that you have good continuity of properties from the rod blank and onto and across the ferrule area. It's also self adjusting for wear - a larger section is always trying to fit into a smaller area.

Tip into butt ferrules are notoriously poor on several counts. One is that they do not adjust for wear. You have a smaller area moving into a larger area and over time this means the fit becomes poor, the tip moves around in the butt and split outs are frequent.

But you can make a decent tip into butt ferrule. It's just that the companies and rod that have normally employed this ferrule have always done so on the cheap. But there are a few good tip into butt designs out there.

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Thanks Tom. I believe these are a discontinued line of blanks by Amtak. Looking at the butt these are graphite composite GSW102MH blanks rated for line 20-40 and lure wt. range up to 6 oz. Most of the reds that I catch in the surf this time of year don't run over five pounds and these rods should hopefully fit the bill. They certainly have a nice finish on them. I got two in white and two in black and they are very light. To keep the weight down I did not underwrap the guides and I used light guides on the one that I have made.

You usually only see tip into butt ferrules on the cheaper rods, one reason I would guess is that it takes less material over all to build a rod. Mfg's with short a rod design to save a guide per rod and then save the labor and guide cost on the 10,000 rods in the production run.

A The butt is usually has a big enough dia, which extended via a shallower taper will easily accept the smaller tip section that also does not need to be as tapered as much in order to flare over the butt section. I look at graphite like a look at aluminim it is often sold by the pound not the shape so the more of it there is the more expensive the rod will be (within a given series/graphite)

"You usually only see tip into butt ferrules on the cheaper rods,"

I do not keep track of the lesser expensive surf blanks, however I believe the Zziplex Primo Synchro has a tip in butt connection. It is a highly sought after fishing and tournament rod. The advantage of the tip in butt connection is the smaller diameter of the tip section at the connection. this leads to reduced air resistance during the cast.

Conoflex also builds a number of tip in butt connections. Conoflex uses both spigots and tip into butt connections. The only tip over butt sleeved connection that they make, that I am aware of, is on the Barracuda.

I would believe the tip in butt connection would be the most expensive to build due to the additional materials and labor required to make a proper connection and re-inforced tip.

Actually it costs a bit less, but as I said earlier, there are good tip into butt ferrules and there are poor tip into butt ferrules. The poor ones are what you find on most of the discount store rods around the world and have given the design a bad name.

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There are always acceptions to any rule, but when speaking in generalities without footnotes as Tom also supplies, and considering Bass fishing has the most lucritive cash flow, thus Mfg's produce more rods for this segment of the fishing public, and as such, utilize tip into butt ferrules most often on cheaper rod designs. So stereotipically the vast majority of cheaper rods use tip into butt ferrule construction, more than likly to save on materials cost, there may be some small quantities of expensive rods that use this design and Tom aptly notes this occurance, so I then do not need to be redundant as this is acception-to-the-rule clause is almost always the case and about as much a given as tip in butt ferrlue being use mainly on cheaper rods so one could talk about them stereotypically with a high degree of accuracy

I was responding to the original context of the thread.

"What are your thoughts on surf rod ferrules?"

So, in regards to the question, I would say that the most common ferrule in inexpensive surf rods is a spigot. This is usually with a female tip. How does a 13' fully built rod with 12" ss butt cap and bell holder for $130 sound? It has a spigot. Another very popular complete 13' rod sells for less than $200. It has a spigot. During the last two or three years there has been a trend for the less expensive surf rods (in Hawaii) to have spigot connections.

The question might be: How long is a surf rod?
I'm sure we would get different answers from people in various regions. I would guess Florida 11 - 13', Texas 12 - 13', Hawaii 13 - 15'. Often I see a question about building (or buying) a 9' surf rod. That certainly does not fall into the ranges indicated. So, what's my point? Sometimes it is necessary to maintain the area of discussion to the original question. There will always be some minor confusion due to our backgrounds and experiences (EG how long is a surf rod?). Was the original question answered? I believe it was answered in part.

Regarding a surf rod 13' long rated 6 to 8 ounces, what are your thoughts on surf rod ferrules?

(Assuming all quality connections.)

Spigot: When used with a parallel handle it provides good casting capability, the use of a movable reel seat and good boosting (lifting) power.

Tip in handle: Excellent for tournament casting due to smaller tip diameter. The heavier weight of the tip section is a negative for repetitive casting.

Tip over handle (sleeve): Better transition into handle section (continued taper) providing better fish fighting characteristics. Good casting capability of heavier weights.

Well, those are my perspectives for the above rod. Of course we all know there will be exceptions such as Thru action surf rods, C action surf rods, the Purglass rods being tapered from the tip to the end of the handle that utilize a spigot, and I'm sure many many more.


As I always hope to increase my knowledge and learn from other's experiences, I more than welcome any corrections or additions.

Mahalo,
Don

Can't touch that specific logic. But to bad the common perseption off the beach is that they are cheap and it is good to hear about just how they can be a benefit when well designed for a speicific task at hand. Thanks for the input

Hi Chris,

Perceptions are very slow to change. An example is the previously mentioned lesser expensive rod. That rod would have been very difficult to sell five years ago since it has a spigot connection. However, as more and more large fish are being landed by these rods, the perception is shifting and they are being accepted as suitable fishing rods. Since their prices are so low they are directly impacting the sale of custom rods.

Don

Hi Don - need some thoughts - nine foot 16/18 wt fly rod

Finally found a couple and are reviewing - both seem to be high quality - 1 composite, one helical

Both blanks typical fly rod taper

Heavy lift and fish fighting primary considerations - casting really not in the mix

Which style ferrule would have the advantage if both quality equal - spigot or tip over handle?

This thread has confused me - it appears that you have noted three types and not two.

I took the following from the site Glossary:

Spigot - A type of ferrule comprised of a plug or internal sleeve joined internally and permanently to one rod section and fitting inside another section by means of a friction fit.

Does this mean that a spigot can be either?

Which one is classically called a spigot by manufacturers.

What is the best ferrule arrangement for the rod detailed above?

Two piece or three piece -

Thanks



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/12/2006 12:51PM by Bill Stevens.

Don:

Yes the preception may be shifting within a very small segment of the rod buying public, namely those who specificly buy Surf rods, Then this small onclave of the public has to contend with the huge overriding perception of Bass fishing public that see it as less than the best, not knowing of a better specific use application, and why should they if it does not directly affect them. So while progress is being made, I can only see it being slow at best, if at all considering what it is up against, but forums like this are another soruce of edification that help the tip into butt cause, at least as a footnote to the Bass rod buying majority

Bill

Don has mentioned three types the 1st two are an over sleeve or bell type ferrule; either tip over, or butt over (Tom Calls the butt over, a Tip into butt ferrule) The 3rd kind was spigot...which would seem to me to be weaker within certain dia peramiters where it gets too narrow and other oversleeve types might become stronger. Our basic discussion was about the over sleeve/Bell types of ferrules whereas spigot ferrules were just a sidebar.

"Heavy lift and fish fighting primary considerations - casting really not in the mix"
"Which style ferrule would have the advantage if both quality equal - spigot or tip over handle? "

I believe the better ferrule is manufacturer specific.

Companies with a long history will tend to have gained experience that enables them to utilize the characteristics of components to build specific products. Conoflex and Zziplex have a very long history as friends and co-workers. Mike McMannus (the owner of Conoflex) gained his basic knowledge repairing the fiberglass parts of Royal Air Force planes damaged in battle during WWII. He later formed a partnership with casting champion Terry Carrol (the owner of Zziplex). They went their own way and remained friends with Conoflex building fishing rods and zziplex leaning more toward tournament rods. Neil McKellow (multiple world championships) was once employed by Conoflex. So, almost any blank sold by these companies will be trustworthy.

On the other hand you may have young new companies that are willing and anxious to try new processes and techniques. They become the new inovators. They learn, adapt, and are aggressive in implementing changes. Of course the company I an referencing is CTS. A little over a year ago we set off on building surf rods. There were failures with the ferrules. CTS examined the jpeg photos and implemented changes that proved to be satisfactory. They were later enhanced to make them more reliable. It was their aggressive and innovative approach that led to new ferrule.

Two years ago I would have said the spigot would be the most powerful ferrule. Now I am not sure. Conoflex built a one of a kind 3 piece Nemesis 13' rod for my use when I was detail for work on Maui. It has spigots (2) and is a pleasure to use. On the other hand, recently have been using a CTS Makoi 3 piece 15' rod. It has 2 tip over handle type ferrules. Two weeks ago it did an excellent job of fighting and landing a log.

I regret that I am not able give advice about the ferrules for a fly rod. It isn't in my realm. I would GUESS that the tip over handle fitting would be slightly better due to the required use. It would be marginally lighter and provide a little better transition. If you are really concerned about power and reliability, a spigot could be the answer. There will be minor trade offs.

"This thread has confused me - it appears that you have noted three types and not two. I took the following from the site Glossary:
Spigot - A type of ferrule comprised of a plug or internal sleeve joined internally and permanently to one rod section and fitting inside another section by means of a friction fit. Does this mean that a spigot can be either? Which one is classically called a spigot by manufacturers."

I am also confused! I'm sure it's my own doing.

First, what is a ferrule? Per Webster: A metal band put around a cane, tool handle, etc. to prevent splitting.
So, OutCast/BigCast is the only company that I know of that uses a ferrule. By extension, since we wrap or otherwise re-inforce the joint, the wrapping or re-inforcement becomes the ferrule. By further extension, the joint becomes the ferrule. Well, that's my guess. When I spoke with Conoflex (a long time ago) I believe the joint was referred to as a "connection".

A spigot, as I know it is a tubular piece of either graphite or fiberglass that is glued into either the tip or handle. At the connection the tip and handle are of the same outside diameter. Both the tip and handle are re-inforced at the connection. I believe Purglass uses a solid rod of graphite for their spigot.

The tip-over or tip over handle or sleeve connection, and I have heard all three choices (which leads to further confusion for me) is a connection where the tip's tube simply slides over the outside of the handle. Although it would seem inexpensive, it requires some skill in achieving the proper taper while maintaining strength.

The tip in handle connection has the tip fitting inside the handle. The ones that I am familiar with have a built up tip section. This means the outside diameter of the tip close to the connection may be smaller than the inside diameter of the handle. This enables a small taper of the tip piece to make a proper fit. Both the tip and handle are re-inforced.

Well, that's my view from the most southern state.
I remain confused and will welcome enlightenment!

Don