Has anyone used Recoil Titanium Guides (Where can I buy them?) and Kevlar Thread (Like for tying flies, Where can I get?) for building the lightest strongest guides to make the lightest rod and sensitive rod out there? Any info appreciated.
Thanks,
Dave

I don't know about kevlar thread, but you can get Recoils directly from REC's website, link on the left.

Are they the only supplier for the recoil guides in titanium?
Thanks,
Dave

Hi Guys.
I'm new to the forum, but have some experience building rods. This place is the mecca for rod building information-and a good education!
In response to Daves question, I would wonder if using kevlar as a guide wrap may be akin to the crushing coils of a techno python !
I have worked quite a bit with Kevlar thread, for flies, and assist hooks-there is no give in this stuff, it feels lifeless. The lack of elasticity in this thread may crush a light blank if tight enough to hold the guide foot securely. This same unforgiving grip may put to much pressure stress at the wrapping site on a heavier blank and cause breakage under strain. Also,-not much bonds to kevlar very well. This could allow the kevlar to migrate in the varnish, and loosen the grip on the guide foot until it actually is held more or less by the varnish itself. (though I am sure it would take a lot of flexing to achieve this state).
Nylon, like a peice of rubber can be used to open a tight lid on a jar effectively because of the deformation of the surface under pressure that is in contact with the lid.Nylon thread also has this property to some degree. Alternativly, a piece of steel slips, even under greater pressure. Kevlar like steel, does not have a forgiving surface and no elasticity, would also tend to allow the guide foot to slip more easily, perhaps causing you to wrap under greater tension than you would otherwise do using nylon. tying off a wrap is a frustrating business, again because of lack of elastisity-they always seem to come loose. I would stick to nylon, and it comes in more colours. Those are my thoughts onKevlar as a guide wrap.
Any good fly fishing shop is likely to have Kevlar thread, or any one that makes assist hooks for jigging may have it for binding. It comes in sizes 3/0, and 6/0. the 3/0 would be a shade thinner than size A nylon, and 6/0 thinner still.
Thanks all of you who give such useful information and a good education on rods !!!

Several sponsors have or can get the RECoil guides for you


Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..

Strength would not be a factor with ANY of the guides out there. The titanium excels at corrosion resistance, especially salt) but don't know if it is that much, if any, lighter. You didn't mention rod/guide type - Single or double foot? Earl had some very good points. As far as thread, if you are thinking about weight (have no idea of the weight difference) What is your thinking on the advantage of kevlar over anything els? Any of the popular nylon or polyester threads are more than strong enough for any fishing condition. A lot of saltwater rods are wrapped with Madiera Polyneon which is actually a little smaller than size A thread. The best way to save weight on wraps is to make them as short as you can and use Single foot rods(depending on the rod, I would use a Forhan wrap on all guides

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Dave,

There is absolutely no advantage to wrapping guides with Kevlar
any of the standard rod wrapping and sewing threads are plenty
strong enough. You will destroy the blank before you pull a guide
off. and as Earl said can cause problems of its own.

Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..

Dave,
I would not consider the Kevlar thread if I were you. All of the Kevlar that I have seen was very limited in colors, it was flat rather than round and as a result difficult to wrap with, the lack of stretch makes it difficult to pull the tab ends under and still keep it tight and it was difficult to cutt and keep the nibs from sticking up.

Any Thread which has NO STRETCH will be inferior to a Thread which has some STRETCH, all other things being equal. … The STRETCH in the Thread allows small fluctuations in the THREAD TENSION caused by the wrapping process and / or the tensioner device to be regulated so that the applied tension is more uniform at all points around the circumference of the rod blank and guide foot.

Earl's other comments & those of Emory are particularly noteworthy, IMO.

There is s practical limit to the maximum amount of Thread Tension that you can apply. If squeezing the Thread between a pressure plate, like the pages of a book, that limit seems to be around 16 - 20 ounces. The smoothness of the thread will have a maximum friction which cannot be exceeded, no matter how much extra weight is applied to the top of the plate (book). Also, the Thread will be flattened, and its normal spiral (like the flute in a drill bit) will be undone, introducing no small amount of TWIST into the Thread. If you relax the Tension, and give it slack, it will spring back on itself in a twist that rivals any back-lash on a casting reel. You'll have to cut it and start over, IMO.

For an end-spool / drag washer type tensioner device, Thread Tension also has to be SMOOTHLY applied, or any drag stuttering will cause the same kind of fluctuations in Thread Tension as described above, and a non-elastic Thread would make matters worse. That also places a practical upper limit on your Thread Tension.

For most applications, I would not recommend a no-stretch Thread for securing Guide Feet to the Rod Blank, IMO, … -Cliff Hall, FL-USA.

For further discussion of the frictional forces involved in how a Guide wrap secures a Guide Foot, take a look at these REPLIES and my embedded Links (Note the Gudebrod Thread Table Link also):

Re: how tight should wraps be Cliff Hall Nov. 16, 2005 11:31
[www.rodbuilding.org]

Cliff Hall Steve Gardner June 26, 2006 06:22
[www.rodbuilding.org]
Mr. Hall: You stated in a resent post that you apply more thread tension then most.
Questions:
1- Do you have a standard that you use to measure that tension?
2- Have you ever had a blank failure because of the excessive thread tension?
3- Do you build light action type rods or are we talking mostly heavier saltwater types?

Dave:

We stock and sell REC Recoil guides. Give us a call toll free 866-285-0673, or send an e-mail. pmaltby@ackfishing.com

[www.ackfishing.com]


Peter Maltby
ACK Fishing & Tackle
866-285-0673

Dave depending on your application, you may also save some weight by downsizing your guide sizes. The guide sizes you see on many rods are bigger than they have to be for stocking purposes. For instance a rod used for vertical jigging presentation with a spinning reel only needs guides large enough for that purpose as you'll not be casting long distances, also you'll be surprised just how far that specific application will work at distance casting when necessary. Same for a rod used in other applications with a casting rod. Mess around and experiment to get the best rod, many times it will look and feel nothing like you see on the rack at a store.

Dave - I have now built and fished with several rods using Recoils and am generally disappointed. In my opinion, Fuji Ti Sic guides perform better in all aspects. Give the TATSGs a try for the choke guides on a spinning rod.

Dave,

Ill jump in here.

The last 2 rods I made were 6 and 6 1/2 ft spinning. Heres the deal in my opinion. Rec's there too damn expensive but I was aware of that when I went into it. Wanted to find out for myself. Check out the price of the 30mm. I have about $70.00 in guides on one rod times 2. Not complaining.

They are very light and you'll be very pleased with that. Anyone who has handled the rods immediately comment on the lightness.

They are almost ready to wrap with just a little stoning off of the edges.

If you use braided line get used to the noise when you reel in with a load on. Means a spinner bait or a deep running crank bait. Folks will tell you that they dont make any noise. Yes They do............Rec guides make noise with braided line. How much? You will probably say "I'm not hearing that noise after I paid that much" .
Its a harmonic and not a "noise" so maybe they dont make a noise but they create a harmonic that I dont like when in an early morning creek wading for Smallmouth and I dont even want to hear myself breath.

Have I caught the line between the coil? Yes I have and said "I caught the line between the coils and what am I going to do now cause my fish is giong to get away. " Ah Geeze........

Did I have the tiptop loop come loose from the crimped tube? It sounded like "What the heck........." as my line dropped to the first eye and the loop slid all the way to my bait and " I dont want to loose this fish to........ahhhhhhh geeeze" I recrimped it back on after I got home and no damage had been done to my $140 Graphite-USA love it dearly rootbeer colored blank)

Do I like them... ??? Well Im mighty proud of them. Whats going on my next rod? Well if I dont use braid, and I check the tiptop for tightness of the crimp, and use a better combination of guides that I learned all about from this amazing forum maybe I'll spring for them again 'cause I sure like them and 'cause they got style....are they practical...I dont think that is what they are about at all.


Just one more thought. the Harmonics is because the surface has texture. I'd guess about a 16micro finish. Im thinking about trying a set again but will polish each guide I.D. to about a 4 micro with a dremmel pad and diamond rouge. Then I think they will be free of noise (I mean Harmonics).



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/30/2006 10:15PM by Tom Danielson.

I know a guy who built a flippin stick using titanium recoil guides and kevlar for guide thread. The rod is extremely light!
That is why I am asking about kevlar to use as a thread. Just asking. I imagine there wouldn't be that much weight difference just using A thread instead but I am looking into building a nice flippin/pitchin stick with the titanium guides. Are there any suggestions for titanium guides other than the Recoil type?
Thanks,
Dave

Dave,
Look at the Titan series from American Tackle. Very nice.


Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!