I have either double-wrapped or wrapped over underwrap on a number of heavier saltwater poles and I always seem to have the same problem; aligning the threads and burnishing is difficult/impossible when wrapping on top of another layer of thread.

To date I have always used size A thread for both the under and overwrap. I have tried wrapping on top of unfinished underwraps as well as color preserved underwraps without a whole lot of difference. The end results is that avoiding gaps in the final wraps is difficult/impossible and it winds-up taking me a very long time applying the overwrap under high magnification to avoid gaps which I can't seem to pack/burnish because of the irregular surface of the underwrap.

I have considered putting a coat of finish on the underwraps but I was concerned that the final wrap would look stranged with the guide "floating" on the finished underwrap. As well I wasn't sure if the finish would be slippery enough to wrap cleanly on top of.

All suggestions appreciated.

Joe.

Try applying a coat of Permaglos to the underwrap let it dry and then put the guide on.

If you use two different sizes of thread, say A tread underwraps and D thread overwraps it goes better. Finishing between wraps as you mentioned also works. If you wrap and refinish in a timely manner (a few days) the wrap finish will bond with each other.

First off it is a saltwater ROD not pole.

Second I would stop using double wraps. I have never heard of a guide popping off because not enough thread was used. When doing a tatic test I put guides on with 1/4" masking tape and have never had a guide pop off so I doubt it would happen with an entire wrap covered in epoxy.

I've always used D thread for my overwraps to prevent gaps, however, if you want to continue to use A you can finish the underwrap first and wrap on top. For larger saltwater guides I prefer this look.

Joe,
That's exactly what I do and it works fine. I put a very thin layer of finish on the underwraps and let it cure overnight. I wrap the guide with two overwraps putting finish on inbetween each wrap as well. I keep the finish build-up to a minimum until the final coats go on. Wrapping over the existing wraps that have finish already makes it very easy. Some say it's overkill to do it that way but it comes out nearly bulletproof. Some of my customers are very hard on their equipment so I like the peace of mind. Just how I do it. Randy.

Scott Youschak Wrote:
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> First off it is a saltwater ROD not pole.

Funny you should mention that....I was debating in my post whether to call it a Rod or a Pole. I am torn between those two terms ;)

J.

LOL

My definition of a pole is a long stick (usually made of bamboo) with a length of of mono used to catch panfish from the side of the road. Anything custom built would be reffered to as a rod.

Epoxy over the underwrap. to use or not use an underwrap - some rods it's overkill, other rods it's "required". To each his own. I underwrap almost all my double footed guides on SW rods because I don't lose any performance and I like the look.

While it is easier to wrap D over A (A underwrap & D guide wrap) what happens when you decide to triple wrap? Are you gonna put E over the D you used for the initial guide wrap? Generally, no! My point is that it shouldn't be 'that' difficult to wrap A over A or for that matter D over D. I usually use A for all my underwrapping. My first, or only, guide wrap may or may not be A. Either way I find it relatively easy to wrap with the same size thread so long as the bottom layer was packed and burnished.

If you're still gunshy, you can do as said above and coat each layer with something. Most anything will work for the underwrap (ie. epoxy, permagloss, or CP). On the really big stuff I will coat every layer with epoxy simply for peace of mind. It's hard to 'over do' those big rods. By using this method you're not going to end up with a 'stepped' look to your final finish job. It will look as smooth and even as ever.

When wrapping over an already finished (with epoxy) layer of thread it is indeed more difficult to move around and burnish your threads. You'll want to be sure they are packed tight while wrapping. Pay attention to gaps while the thread is going on and you'll have no problems.

Good luck!

Jay

Underwraps aren't expressly necessary. When using them I have found that wrapping them in a reverse direction from how the overlap will be laid up seems to work out a part of a over all concept to combat the difficulty in this effort. I too wrap "A" over "A" and when I use size "D" it goes on like paint so using "A" is a tough row to hoe, Try size "C" thread, that was the old school rod buillding axiom; "C" over "A". Either way each requiring frequent packing. The underwraps need to be well burnished and secured on each end by a few extra overwraps of thread to withstand the burnishing all the while you keep packing the underwerap ends. I can get away with just color preserver in my "A" over "A" attempts. Permagloss would be another good alternative, but with just color preserver you could strip the rod and move guides without leaving a blemish at some point in the future. Epoxies add no structual support, they just seal off from the elements.

The phone and electric company uses poles, anglers use rods!!! LOL!

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Mike Barkley Wrote:
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> The phone and electric company uses poles, anglers
> use rods!!! LOL!

You have never seen what my father fishes with then. His rods are so old, decrepit and generally useless. I would think they'd be better off being called poles and donated to the phone company :)

We went fishing this weekend and he had a 60's vintage 2-piece 6'6" spinning POLE built on a very whippy fiberglass blank that had 4 guides and a tip-top!

J.

Joe,

When I need to wrap the same size thread over a underwrap of the same size here is a trick I do and it works.

I move my motor to the right side of my lathe and wrap all the under wraps including the butt under wrap. Then I move the motor back to the left side and do the guide over wraps. The under wrap is slanted very slightly in a different direction and makes the over wraps not fall in the under wrap thread grooves. I have found that for me it is impossible to get a wrap perfectly square on the rod. The slight slant is not visible to most people.

Larry Tysinger

I used to double wrap all my guides also, but it is really not necessary. You are going to have damage to the guide if enough pressure is put on it in order to rip even a single layer of thread coated in epoxy off a rod. Double and triple wrapping add weight and don't do anything to help the performance of the rod. Think about it, have you ever had a guide fall off?? It is overkill that detracts from the performance of the rod and also makes epoxy work look like footballs.

Scott, overwraps do not affect teh performance of the rods people are triple wrapping, not one bit. Epoxy only looks like footballs if you are a hack, it's not the triple wrap making you score TD's, is teh person applying the epoxy.

Billy
Double and triple wrapping guides adds weight and reduces a rod's performance, Also adding more thread on top of one another is going to give it a more round appearance.

Oh no, the performance of this rod has been reduced to an extra layer of thread. Oh NO!!!

[www.rodbuilding.org]

I was speaking generally, I didn't think we were talking about a specific rod. You're right on that rod an additional layer of thread would be nominal to the weight and performance of the rod. You could notice the difference though on lighter rods. All I was saying is that I think it is unneccessary because there is no chance of a guide popping off a rod because you didn't put enough layers of thread on it.

Larry T.

Thanks for the reaffirming of my post that indicated to wrap thebunderwraps one direction and over wraps the opposite, which will make start a underwarp going in the opposite direction under at some point under theoverwrap when using a double foot guide. Beacause we all wrap up the foot not down it. But secure underwarp ends and good hard burnishing, I think, makes the job easier.

Joe,

I've got two 80lb stand-ups on the bench to be triple wrapped right now. "A" underwraps, "C" second and "D" third. The additional weight is not a factor on meat sticks like these and the finish will come out as flat as a single or double wrap. You're only looking at an additional .020" to the diameter of the wrap (adding the 3rd layer), which alone won't cause finish footballs. Stepping up the thread size on each overwrap saves a lot of time and gaps, but "A" over "A" is perfectly doable on a well burnished, well packed underwrap and CP or finish on the underwrap as mentioned above works well too. It's just more time consuming and time is money!

We've got several customers that offer Madeira wraps and charge more for them. As much as double in fact. Madeira 40wt. is even smaller than Gudebrod "A" and as Billy will tell you, needs to be tightly packed, well burnished and is usually CP'd before over wrapping. If their customers want Madeira, they're going to pay for it!

Mark Griffin
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C&M Custom Tackle
San Dimas, California