Ok, I can't seem to think of a tactfull way to put this so I'm just going to
shoot from the hip here.

When it comes to selling rods you have built. Unless you have built enough
of that type of rod and they have been in service long enough to withstand
the abuse and conditions that anyone can put them thru without mishap
and the ones using them are still very happy. DON'T SELL THEM TO THE
PUBLIC!!

So, if you are planning to build rods for sale, build a few for yourself and MANY
more for friends and family members and tell them to fish them HARD and often!
Request feedback from them about how the rod performed and take note on
how the rod held up to being tossed around and such. If the ones fishing them
are still very happy and the rods still are in good shape then and ONLY then can
you be sure that your construction methods are sound.

Fish your rods along with comparable factory rods and if your rods do not
out perform the factory equilivant then your not building them as well as you
could be. Your rod may LOOK a lot better but it should also WORK better!

Any rod builder who does NOT do this and starts selling rods before they truly
understand the hows and whys is just asking for trouble and giving everyone else a bad name.

Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..

Amen!!! Not only that, but they are adversely affecting all custom builders by casting a bad slant on the quality of custom rods in general

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

I also strongly agree with Emory about the fact that what one of the things
that makes up a "custom" rod is building a rod to perform best for a certain
type or style of fishing technique.

I have not yet learned how to fly fish so I would not presume I could build
fly rods for sale. I know I could build one and it probably would work quite
well but unless I could use it KNOW for certain it was better than what could
be bought off the shelf, I would be doing the customer and every other fly rod
builder a disservice.

Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..

A couple of thoughts hopefully pertaining to this subject. I think this forum is a great ad in continuing the evolution of performance rod building. I had never fly fished and built a fly rod for a friend, I used the information from this board and its library articles to set the rod up. Tested methods from experienced rod builders. My friend and myself casted the rod and he agrees it is a very nice casting fly rod, better than any of his store bought fly rods, and said it looks better also. That same rod I took in to a fly rod dealer that said he would possibly do a trial and see if my rods would sell, told me just bring one in when you are done so he could look at it. I brought the rod in, he really liked the looks, told me it would never cast with those small #6 SF ceramics, and to take the tamer guide of and through it away, he said replace the SF ceramics with snakes and remove the Tamer guide and he would display my fly rods, I told him I would not down grade my rods to be like the every other fly rod, what is the point in building custom rods. I went to another area shop that has been building rods a very long time, he is well known in the industry. He told me people on this forum way over think fishing rods and they should keep there thinking simple on rods. He said once again junk the tamer guide and through away the ceramics, he also stated that plastic junk graphite rod blanks would never work as well as fiberglass or bamboo for a fly rod, this is coming from a very well known rod shop that has been mentioned here a few times before, mentioned only because he sells one product of interest to people here every now and then. The truth be known I think he has a vast inventory of old fiberglass blanks that he will be stuck with maybe indefinitely, I just about asked him if he sold waders, so I could get out of the shop. He seems to think his time and knowledge to give advise or estimates on old bamboo fly rods is worth big money, so even people in the industry for a very long time can hurt custom rod builders as well, I guess that is my point. I have since built a few more fly rods using the same methods I used before, the people that got them really enjoy them and the one I made for myself I have fished and could not be happier also. Have a great day, Rich.

After reading the above posts many quotes come to mind, a Retailer will always sell whats in stock and formulate a rational to push it. As for durability most graphite rods in and of themselves are inheritantly fragile if you don't understand the rods weak points or limitation. "A Man must know his limitations" Dirty Harry . I make sure a education is provided to every person I build a rod for to keep the rod fishing not constantly being retied and in transit being shipped back for replacment. Its not hard to break a rod, many have bad habits, High Sticking, reefing on a snag with the rod, laying a rod flat on the ground, just common sense things that are some how highly uncommon.

You must build at least as strong as a production rod or why do it in the 1st place, I will ad a little weight if the result is durability, to a point. The public in general wants a good no fault warranty so they can abuse a rod and replace it every other year so you could hardly built it durable enough to survive the public in general. They need to know th elimitations of the rod and that includes the warranty, price is high enougfh so they respect it, its an adult rod not a toy, Explain the engineering and how it can easliy work for or against you if you don't understand it. The concept of building a bullet proof rod is ineffectual and if you did, you would not want to fish with it.

Size 6 ceramics are a bit to small for a heavier wt. fly rod (6's should be reserved for mono only applications) as the line is thicker and you have to tie connecting knots in it, so 7's are about as low as you can go on heaiver weight rods. Then form follows the function, Size 8 ceramic single foot guides are ideal on rods...10 wt and above on the tip section, Double foots and snakes should be used on the bottom 5 guides on this heavy a rod. They frame type on guides can gradually be paired down as the weight of the rod lowers.

As for overthinking rod building on this site. rod building can be as simple or complex as the time your willing to devote to learning about it, or what any given mind determines is good enough, a very subjective judgement. When a job is worth doing, it is worth doing well and thus it follows a level of expertise beyond the K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple Stupid) method envelopes maven level enthusiasts.

I use the forum here extensively and have developed solid appreciation for my relationships with fellow builders (pros and newbies) that have as a result. I give away all the rods I build currently, I simply do not feel ready to charge for the product that I am producing at this time. In fact I have only JUST produced two rods that I am truely happy with (both rebuilds of existing blanks) and will be shortly presenting them to a good friend and his eldest son.

I build for a church group and a couple of other charities as well but these are all quick and dirty builds, nothing fancy, that are meant to be USED and not displayed.

Will I ever sell rods?

Probably not anytime soon as I feel my techniques need improvement.

Will I ever find myself at the same level with Doc, Putter, Billy Vivona, and other board luminaries?................................yeah, right.

Will I ever match Cliff Halls' brainpower?..........Not without a transplant!

I have chosen a niche that I will try and fill here in Northern California when I am ready to sell rods ( Custom Lightweight Surf Rods). I am fishng a prototype rod now. My best guess is that I am about three years away from making this happen as I am more than a little retentive when it comes to selling things I produce (Photographer and Competitive Baker) and I will need a better job because building what I WANT TO BUILD is a bit tough on my budget.

To put it bluntly......If you can look at a rod you just built, be honest with yourself, and say "yeah, I can sell this one"......Go for it. If it has all the charm of a used q-tip (me two years ago....seriously) DON"T DO IT! I can be honest and say I am not ready, some think I am but I still haven't resolved my hatred of two-part epoxy finishes and that is slowing me down a bit. As is the problem of my reativity to them given accidental skin contact. My decorative wraps need serious help as well, but I will NOT give up my coffee.

My rodbuilding involves formulas and a scientific approach to design and function and that works for me but it takes time. The archives are a MAJOR part of my approach.

I can't thank Tom enough for offering this forum and the information it contains.





Derek L. McMaster
Rohnert Park, CA

Born to Fish, FORCED to Work

Hi, I just thought I would add that the fly rod I took to the fly rod shop owner was a 4/5 Wt. Size 6 SF seems to pass my loop to loop connections fine, do not think I would want to go size 7 SF on that size of fly rod. have a great day, Rich.

Rich:

I is a little bit more a matter of just passing through, like a drifter, the smaller arc of a size 6 ring seems to grab more of the knot as it passes through, not to mention contact more of the line as it passes by (although a minimal addition in wet friction)The butt end of a leader is .020"+ in many instances if you have to tie it on as many still do. Now the loop to loop connecters.. true, are a different story, but does everyone use them? When selling to the public at large there are a few more variables that some might be put off by and one must build more for the masses or designate this beast as a loop to loop connector speciality rod

What I'm about to say is not a knock on this board or any of the features it offers. But...............

Attempting to base ones knowledge on the basis of what is found on an internet message forum or chat room would be similar to a doctor trying to practice medicine based on the information he can glean off a medical interent forum. Well, I guess you're not going to kill anyone by building a rod, but you get the picture.

Most doctors, lawyers, business owners and similar all rely on their formal education plus the information they receive in their field's trade journals to keep on top of things. As has been pointed out many times here, there is no guarantee that what you might read on a public forum is even remotely accurate.

The rod building hobby-business has been fortunate to have a trade publication of its own in Rodmaker Magazine. Let me repeat that this is not a knock on this website which is excellent in what it does, but it can in no way compare to the the magazine in terms of overall quantity of information and ideas and the parallel quality of the information which is presented there.

This is a great website, but it should never be the basis for one's most important rod building information where selling rods to the buying public is concerned.

Hi Chris,

My main point was that there are some rod builders with inventory they had built up over the years that will say that what they build is better because they have a accumulated inventory they would like to get rid of. I did not even want to build fly rods, my neighbor wanted me to build one for him, so I did. The end result was his fishing buddies all wanted one after they tried his, I did not go looking for sells, and really did not make much at all if anything after you figure hours spent making them. I let them know that if any defect turns up due to my building methods I will fix the rod or just replace it, they fished the rods pretty heavily this summer and from what I have been told could not be happier. I started making furled leaders with sorb loops and gave them each a leader to try with there rod also, they are fans of furled leaders now and most have never herd of them. I have built a few spinning rods and a few casting rods, which I have to say, Tom Kirkmans bumper wrap works extremely well, I think that my rod would not end up being a true bumper wrap I had a couple modifications due to the very stout rod blank I used, also went with a small #10 DF first to #6 SF bumper and then SF #6 all the way to the tip, some may say those guide choices wont work, but it casts incredible and while fighting large pike I purposely bent the rod past where anyone with commonsense would to see if there would be ill effects a few times and it held up just fine. I have not subscribed to Rod Maker Magazine, but I have received the ones that I thought I would be most interested in which was quit a few,Great Magazine, I also have a few other rod building books I have accumulated over time. It is when people think they know it all about there profession or trade, or hobby, is when they should get out of there profession, the two I met where I live, I would consider them both in that category. Have a great day, Rich.

There is no “Society of Uniform Rod-Building Excellence” (“SURBE”), or “National Association of Custom Rod-Builders” (“NAsCuRB”), [as opposed to the “Custom Rod-Builders Association of Panama, Inc.” (“CRAPI”)], or whatever, to prevent shoddy workmanship or verify that a rod-builder’s rods are “safe & effective”, like the FDA does for drugs. Nor do I think there should be.

This has been discussed here at RBO at least once in the last 2 years. While it’s a noble notion, it harkens back to the Guild’s(?) attempts to create a monopoly on rod-building excellence and affiliation, which is really just a method of hording power. It seems that Guild did little to educate the uninitiated masses & fledgling rod-builders; or to promote the liberal exchange of ideas & techniques among custom rod-builders; and even less to assure an open, free & competitive market-place for custom rods.

Don’t get me wrong – I agree whole-heartedly with Ray’s opening salvo. Fishing Rods should not be sold as CUSTOM Rods until the rod-builder’s methods & materials are TESTED & PROVEN to be reliable. But that is a matter of personal integrity and responsibility: to oneself; to the customer; and to the collective rod-building cottage industry. Unfortunately, not all effects can be foreseen. … From time to time, there may be serious mistakes made, even among well-meaning or experienced rod-builders. It’s how we handle them that makes the difference in the long run, IMO. Even one bad experience can cast a dark cloud of doubt over one’s own qualifications & reputation, and over custom rod-building in general. Only top quality products & service can blow away that doubt, and restore customer confidence & willingness to pay more for his fishing rods & fishing pleasure.

Hat’s off to Tom Kirkman, to the many wonderful Sponsors, & to all you guys that make this RBO Forum & PhotoGallery such a great place to improve our rod-building knowledge & techniques. Panning for the gold of and wrestling with the art & science of custom rod-building here at RBO is among the best catalysts for revolutionizing one’s rod-building abilities. I know it has mine.

Thanks, Ray for a great discussion.
Here’s to better rod-building, … B)- …
Living & Learning right there with ya, -Cliff Hall, FL-USA.

I recently had occasion to converse with Tom K. about similar situations to that expressed about or logical trains of thought that brought up the same issues, and as always it lead to further thinking, in this instance about the relationships betweeen on line and printed forms of information.

RodMaker Mag is no doubt the ultimate indepth authority in the field in question and as a source of precise information it is second to none. Those who do repond on this site express what they have encountered in similar given situations, often based on articals they have read in Rod Maker mag and applied experiance. I am one of the many individuals who use this site yet do not indirectly support it (other than distributors) by having a subscription myself. What I do have is access to some one who does so I get see the indepth features and wish I did or even could get a subscription..particularly at this time, but in the near future a residence itself may be in question so the supportive point is tentive now and may soon become moot.

While this site is not the difinitive last indepth word the RodMaker Mag is on any given rod building subject, it does have particular benefites over that of the mag. Tom researches things to the enth degree, but patrons of this site often are looking for a more immediate responce to their questions, Which may soon be answered in an upcoming or, has already been answered in an older volume of Rodmaker Mag. The lone drawback is waiting for artical to come out, or a copy of a old issue to be boughten and shipped let alone asking another question to find out which back issue answers your question, although Tom and many others do regularly supply this information when the question is originally posted.

As in the real world there is always a place or person who does it better or more professionally. There are pros and cons to every venue, just like each fish has a specialied technique for aquiring it; that may need a specialized weapon to facilitate this end. This site is as good as what it can accomplish given its strengths as the Mag is at what it does ever so well but at a slightly slower pace which exactitude demands. While the more diverse opinions offered on line may not all have similar credentials behind them RodMaker Mag readily wields often this variance leads to in depth articals or foot notes that indirectly contribute to the Mag. I for one always look for other eyes to see what I may have missed, or applications I have yet to fathom, once exposed they are food for thoughtful mutation of ideas and concepts. It has been said "Originality" is a something old with a twist something new and one never knows where that old concept or new twist is going to come from or what instigates its merging, or weather that medium is slower and more precise in its delivery or fast, varued and spontanious, each are a tool to be implimented as best one can

I won't argue with Ken about the superior information and ideas found in RodMaker over what you see on this site. His point is well taken. But these are two entirely entirely different mediums and each one excels in a different area.

No, this site cannot offer you the type of information and ideas found in RodMaker, but neither can the magazine come to your aid when you need an answer at 9PM this evening so you can get a rod finished for a customer by tomorrow afternoon.

Granted, most every question that has ever been asked on this board has already been answered in one of the past issues of the magazine, but there are always those times when somebody just needs a very specific answer. right away, to something peculiar that has come up. And that is the strength of the rod building forum. The ability to quickly converse with others in the same field is bound to yield at least some amount of good help.

If I were still building rods for sale, I would avail myself of all the various mediums available to the custom rod builder.

...............

I want to thank Chris for his explaining to me about the small ring problem with knots easily passing through, I learned something new today, that i gave little thought about, shows me exactly why this forum is such a great resource. I also want to thank Tom kirkman for this forum and Rod Maker Magazine, and for the great sponsors of this forum, I buy 90 % of my rod building materials from them. I would hate to think how long it could have taken me to build a usable rod I liked without this forum, the great sponsors and the helpful people that use this forum. Have great day, Rich.

This forum is a great help to rod builders but in many cases it has taken away the initiative because it is so easy. It really gets to me to see someone ask, duh, what color should I wrap my rod? Thinking for one's self is where the new ideas and methods come from, try being the individual rather than just one of the pack. Jesse

Looks like the original subject of this thread has gone a shew somewhat.
Interesting discussion though. Thanks everyone!

Actually, I expected to get some disagreements. My words were a bit strong.
After all who am I to say when a given rod builder is ready to market thier rods
to the public? Where I am convinced that most builders will need to build quite
a few rods( and receive much feedback) before they obtain the knowlage and experience
to perfect their craftsmanship and really build a rod that is superior in fit, finish, and
performance to a fine factory rod, there are probably a few builders who have enough
experience in other crafts, have done there homework, and have used this forum and it's
resorces to fill in the gaps and could probably do a very good jod in a very short time.

I'm not talking about the arts of rod building here like fancy crosswraps, weaves, and inlays
or fine handlework. I'm talking about choosing the right blanks and components for the
right applications and putting them together in the best way possible with a high degree
of fit and finish and sound construction techniques.


When I first started building rods I learned mostly from rebuilding and reparing factory
rods (mostly low end stuff). I found out in a short time that the rods I rebuilt performed far
better than the new models. If a friend or someone I met while fishing asked me to sell
one to them I would. Even though my fit and finish technique was less than desired
( I tend to be quite hard on myself). I usually would only charge for the cost of materials
though.

It's a fine line we walk when we allow substandard work to go out into the world for all
to see. Especilly if we are monitarilly compensated (no matter how small) for it.

How are we to learn without building though? Do we tear apart and keep rebuilding that
rod until it's absolutely perfect? No, I think not. If a friend really wants that ugly rod you
built last year and hate to admit you did, do you give it to them?

Thoughts???

Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..

I've been enjoying this thread. Thanks. There is a lot of wisdom here on RBO and I am so very glad that I stumbled onto this board!

Raymond said, "there are probably a few builders who have enough
experience in other crafts, have done there homework, and have used this forum and it's
resorces to fill in the gaps and could probably do a very good jod in a very short time."

I agree with that 100%. I'm sure we've all known "experts" that have been doing some particular task for decades and they are only mediocre at it. Some folks are sharp, and quick to learn, and they will be the builders that will be giving advice here in a few years! Some of the photos I've seen posted here labeled "first rod", etc are pretty darn good looking. If a rodmaker is capable of producing a quality product consistantly - a rod that stands the test of time on the water - with a warranty of some kind, I would think that it would be within reason to consider selling some rods. It will appear more legit though if the rodmaker has some years of experience under his (or her) belt. Until then, maybe give them (or sell at a discount?) to tourney fisherman, guides, or friends that are good fisherpersons and get some feedback (as has already been stated). Lastly, perhaps a builder should hold off on getting decals made or signing (name) Custom Rods until they are battle tested?

Chuck

Ray,

I agree with you on what probably should happen....but I don't think rod building is any different than many other types of "custom" items for sale.

I would say "you get what you pay for......and buyer beware is the rule". If Billy Vivona (sorry Billy but you make really nice rods) sells a rod for $500.00 (only hypothetically) and "Bubba" says I can make you the same thing for $59.00 maybe this should be questioned.

Part of being a custom rod builder is making the rod the way the customer wants it. Rich by his own admission isn't into building fly rods but his customer wanted one...he did some research and built what his customer feels is a nice rod... I don't see anything wrong with that. By the way I like the sz 6 guides fine on my 4wt rods...not that Chris has anything wrong with what he is saying. I take pride in making very good connecting knots...perhaps that is why I have no issues with the 6's???

I do not sell rods. If I did my policy would be to be honest with your customer. "Listen, I don't make very many of this type of rod, but if you know what you want" I will do my best. Then make every effort to make the best rod you can. Also Know when to say...I know a guy who builds 100's of these a year....when over your head.

A good retailer will stock product that his customers want....if he sells crap and fails to provide exceptional service...he will lose that customer to the Wal-mart's of the world. When I worked in retail fishing for every "high end" rod you would sell 10 cheap rods. The one "high end" rod was usually sold to a repeat customer who already owns a bunch of rods. The cheap rod was sold to some guy going on his one camping trip that year and he either couldn't find the last one or drove over it one to many times with a car and it needed to be replaced.

Just my 2 cents