Been browsing around some of the other trades websites looking at some of the wood inlays, and I just don't get it. Why is there a market for $3000 pool cues, and $1000+ guitars for customers looking for really intricate wood inlays made on CNC machines....yet for Rodbuilding, there are very, very few guys doing this work. I have never seen a picture of a scimshawed or CNC wood inlay outside of Ray Jorgensen and Terry Henson, Eden Broomfield has sone a lot of trim ring work....but no images.

Something along the lines like this, which some may think is guady and voerdoing it: [www.viattorre.com]

I know there are plenty of builders NOT on the internet, but I wonder how many are actually out there doing this type of work, and why there aren't more fishermen interested in it? They are there in other trades.

HEre's a video of a Custom Pool Cue shop, showing all the steps. REally cool. I almost puked at teh part when the inlay was cut by machine, lol. This movie is probably 4 minutes long and has sound, so it may not work on some people's computers. [www.mcdermottcue.com]

billy great post . They were a couple of very interesting sites . I have quite often picked up pool cues at the local sports store and wondered how they were made . They really get the imagination ticking over. I guess finding time to experament and machinery costs might prevent some rod builders exploring that avenue .

Yeah, the milling machines and lathes cost a load, and add all that wood, inlay materials, precious stones, etc. Programming a CNC machine is no joke either. It would be highly interesting to get all that done on a rod handle though.

Great points. BUT...the cost of that machinery was just as much for the pool cue guys as it would cost a rodbuilder. The difference is the customers buying pool cues expect to have that type of inlay work and will pay for it, thus justifying the cost of the labor & machinery. 99.9999% of fishermen will not. That's what I'm not understanding.

Same goes for custom guitars (do a search on custom guitar inlay), and it probably goes for knifes and sword collectors. People are out there willing to pay for this type of work, but apparantly none of them fish. I also think that there are not many rodbuilders capable of doing this work, or that they are not willing to do this type of work by hand - so it never caught on in this industry. Pool Cues expect wood inlay. Custom knives expect rivets & trim rings. Fishermen expect pitted cork and black foam.

Not so very long ago, that type work was all done by hand. Some of it still is and the better hand made stuff still commands the premium prices. But there is no doubt that the newer laser cut and CNC machined items are nearly flawless.

The craft of custom rod building lags far behind other such crafts like woodturning, woodworking, knife making, etc. Part of that is because the custom rod building craft has never had any sort of trade organization, association, etc., to publicize itself to the general fishing public. Make no mistake, this is the major reason why custom rod building is not on the same level as so many other crafts.

The coffee table book which I've recently finished (but likely won't publish for a while now) and the International Custom Rod Building Exposition are the type things that bolster the image of custom rods in the eyes of the public. But these are just two recent endeavors against legions of similar type things that have been going on for decades within the other crafts.

Image counts. And by and large, custom rod builders and custom rod building do not have a very good image among the general fishing public. At least not to the point where custom rod builders are viewed in the same light as the better wood turners, wood workers, knife makers, gun makers, etc.


................

There are tens of thousands or more who shoot pool. Most use a cheap, crooked cue pulled off the rack at their local pub or sports bar. A tiny handful will spends the bucks for something really special. There is the same tiny handful that will pay extra for a nice custom rod. We’re no different in this regard than in any other craft.

But I do agree that the lack of any sort of professional rod building organization holds us back to some degree. I’m not talking about a social club but the kind of actual professional association that the other crafts have and what I think Tom is talking about. I brought this up once here on the board and asked what people might like to see along these lines. I was pretty much told that there was no need for such a thing because this board and the magazine served the same purpose but just not with any need to pay additional dues or have any organization to it. I can accept that. But I still think some sort of professional rod building organization could help the image of custom rod building if it was done properly and would concentrate on marketing our image to the public. I guess the only question is, who would join and would enough join so that it would be able to afford what needs to be done.

I don't disagree with that at all, but I'm not sure you're going to have enough guys join to fund that type of thing to the point where it could effectively advertise and market. This is why a trade organization is the better choice in my opinion. The larger manufacturers have the funds to pool so that a collective campaign could be undertaken without putting an undue financial burden on anyone. But I doubt it will ever happen.

...........

You have a very good point about the cost of "Cues" and other intricate wood inlays. I didn't go much farther than reading your post, but If you look at those shops where those Cues are made make an estimate of how much that machinery costs.............Read the following with an open mind. I just brushed on the top of what a "general purpose" cue shop has in it........Then you will know why most rod makers don't do this type work......

My CNC, machine $17,000.00 USED....
My Programing would have cost about another $12 to 1500.00 if I had not known how to build it, and these programs change constanly. Each new design needs a new program that can cost an additional $1,000.00 or more. End mills (bits) for cutting those designs often exceed $100.00 each. Oh almost forgot, you also need a system controller that has more memory than Albert Einstien.

Thats just a start for the automated "stuff."

Manual operated engravers and "templates, vertical mills, lathes (wood and metal) table saws, band saws, drill press, planners or jointers, a laminate clamp can cost up to and usually does $750.00. This tool is used to laminate those "spear" shaped or "V" groove inlays. Then there is a high quality fixture for making that laminate into a "V" groove. The little tool that allows us to make consistant taper on a wood dowel, starting price around $1,700.00.

Don't be to harsh on the cue makers that do it for a living and have automated. There isn't much difference in a CNC cut and template cut except the CNC cuts will be the same. The reason most cue makers went automated was they "could" make more intricate inlays "consistantly" and they could remain competitive with the "ASIAN" cues that are coming into this country. I think many rod makers are starting to use automated (powered) wrappers so they can produce a greater number of rods.


So, if you just wanted to do some "general" good quality inlay work and you could find all the necessary tools "USED" you might be able to do it with about $10,000.00.

I found this site after a friend ask me to do some inlay work on a fly rod. Since then I inherited a nearly complete rod building shop and I intend to use it, but I won't be doing much inlay work.........But, DON'T LET ME DICOURAGE YOU IF YOU WANT TO TRY IT, IT MAY TURN OUT TO BE THE MOST REWARDING PART OF YOUR ROD BUILDING EXPERIENCE. Good luck if you decide to do so.....send me an e-mail and I'll give you the names of the people that sell the equiptment you'll need to get started.

Power wrappers have been around for decades and they still don't do anything except the turn the rod for you - all rods are still wrapped by hand. Most custom builders who build more than the occassional rod will have some sort of power wrapper in their shop.

All the intricate work that guys are doing with lasers and CNC tooling were once done by hand. You can do this type work with little to no investment, but it will require skill.

My only point here is that this type work can be done without a tremendous investment, but it will require skill and time. For the amount of money that most custom rods sell for, the tooling would probably be cost prohibitive. And, to do it with hand tools and the required skill requires time that you won't likely be compensated for to any great degree. But you can do it, and you can do it without expensive tooling if you really want to do that type of work.

...................

For those who enjoyed teh previous links, here's another "how to" that I will be totally unable to perform, lol. At least I know how it is done: [www.waynecustomcues.com]

Here's a pool cue maker Trade Group, I think? [www.internationalcuemakers.com]

Check out the gallery, some nice stuff.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/05/2006 02:12PM by Billy Vivona.

Yes, that's what Ken is talking about, I suspect. Looking over the member list, they appear to have about 60 members at $100 each per year. I do not know how long they've been up and running so it could be a strong new organization or an older one that still has yet to take off. Either way, I did not see anything pertaining to what they actually do to promote custom cues. I would think that would be the impetus for joining, if your money is going to actually see an tangible results. Anybody can start a club and charge membership fees to fund who knows what. But for all I know, they're very active in promoting their members and their craft. I just didn't see any of the promotional activities listed.

www.goabra.org is more along the lines of what can be done for custom rod building. Even so, they haven't been able to set the woods on fire. Although to be honest, they're working with a much smaller group of people than custom rod building in general. It could certainly work and properly done would be almost sure to have an impact on the image and prices of quality custom rods.

.............

Maybe it depends on the type of rods you are talking about. There was an article on bass rods that said "I've seen some beautiful wood and EVA work on bass rods, but serious bass guys will not use them". It was written by someone who was a builder and competitive bass tournament angler in a well known publication. I've seen a lot of similar opinions on here, which might offer some reason why wood isnt as big on rods as it is on pool cues. Being mostly a bass guy (but apparently not a serious one) most of the rods I've built are bass rods. Those with wood handles are some of my favourites. They've never slipped out of or stuck to my hands, in either rain or shine or cold or hot weather. But I don't fish competitively so there may be a difference there. Anyway, good post.

That's certainly a good point. Overall though, I think custom rods, wood or not, fancy or plain jane, tend to bring less money in their respective market than do those items such as pool cues, wood turnings, knives, etc., and most of that has to do with the lack of any collective promotion on behalf of custom rod building.

...........

Tom's last post is what Im talking about. Combining that with his other posts, I think teh perception of builder's IS in teh crapper. How can it get like that? All you have to do is look at some of the custom rods that are out on the market. There are some really poor custom rods out there...or what people percieve as a custom rod.

Steve - what you say is probably true (the perception that wood sthinx as a grip material). However, people pay for wood sculpture, wood scrimshaw & scrollsaw work - and it just sits there on a mantle. I would expect there are some people who would be interested in rods alng the same lines.

Respect due to those who do grip inlays in OUR craft.

[www.rodbuilding.org]
[www.rodbuilding.org]
[www.rodbuilding.org]
[www.rodbuilding.org]
[www.rodbuilding.org]
[www.rodbuilding.org]

www.fishingphotos.net/photopost/showgallery.php?ppuser=208&cat=500
www.fishingphotos.net/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=104&sl=t

I apologize for those I missed. Here are the guys who have inspired me, and some of their work. I wish some would post more photo's of their work, Eden & Mike Crichton do some amazing work which I would love to see more of.

PS - see designing a unique rod thread....you can see me doing my research every post I make, lol.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/05/2006 07:38PM by Billy Vivona.

Billy, my theory is along the lines of what you just posted. I've seen a lot of custom rods that people paid good money for that, if I had done the work, would have been stripped the next day. One of the problems with rodbuilding is that just about anybody can whip out a quick kit, start a website and advertise as a "professional". There are certain skills to be sure, but nothing like other items. There aren't many guys who can, or even will, attempt to build their own cue, gunstock or knife. Not to say that it can't be done, just that those aren't things that a guy can whip out in a weekend in his basement. Which goes along your initial question. I don't think many folks are willing to invest the time and effort required to do this type of work, especially with hand tools, for little return. Similar to the top weavers. There is a certain market for that level of skill, but because of that certain small market, not many other folks are willing to invest the time into learning/doing that type of work, especially when there is no return of investment in practice. You have to enjoy doing it in the first place. A paycheck is just a bonus.

And for your second part, I've long held that there are very very few people who ever thought of buying a rod as a work of art. People will buy decorative items, such as top custom knifes, especially the fantasy type ones, just to enjoy the beauty with no intention of using. A fishing rod is generally thought of as a utility item. It is something that is intended to be used. But unlike a well inletted gunstock/grip or a pool cue that people have had made with every intention from day one of passing it on to a grandchild, fishing rods are also generally regarded as a disposable item.. something that is almost guaranteed to break eventually. Many people are reluctant to spend on frivolous things like a cool handle when they believe the rod will break in a year or two. I've built rods that people refuse to fish with. They are afraid of breaking them so they hang them on the wall or leave them in their rod rack. It's bittersweet as they were made to be fished and enjoyed, but a part of me is glad they enjoy them as much as they do just looking at them. I think that so many people have experienced broken rods from the time that they were kids, that it doesn't occur to them that a rod can last more than a lifetime if it just taken care of. That is a perception that, if changed, would help us all. The few fishermen who know this, are the ones who appreciate and desire a well inletted grip.

And, like so much of what we all do, it comes down to reputation. For example, people don't buy a "Henson Handle" just because it is beautiful... they buy it because it is a "Henson". I'l guarantee you that those customers of Terry's would never consider having me make a grip, even if it were a 100% replica.

I think that Mick pretty much nailed it. I live in what is arguably one of the top walleye, smallmouth and musky fisheriy in the country. I find it ironic that you can almost walk across the Detroit River or Lake Eries on $35,000 boats that are stocked with $50 rods. Th great majority of the charter boats, and there are hundreds, use $50 Shakespeare rods and are extremely happy with them. We have tons of tournament fisherman (Bass and Walleye pro's) and you would have trouble GIVING most of them a custom rod. Most pay under $100 for a rod and some do quite well on the pro circuits.. Like Mick said, due to the fact that anyone can put a kit together and call themselves a "Custom" builder when in fact, they are rod assemblers. Unfortunately, the bad builders make it hard on everyone. (Before everyone jumps, I want to make it clear that I do NOT consider my skills on a level with many, if not most, of the builders who frequent this board)

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

I had a nice visit with Billy V. this afternoon. My take on this is that there are a few problems and historical distinctions that limit the use of inlays in a handle.

#1. In recent history the use of wood in a fishing rod handle has not been the norm.
I’m not a pool player, so I can’t say that there hasn’t been a cue “handle” made from cork, EVA or flocked. I have never seen a pool cue that the butt end has not been made from wood.

#2. The view of wood handles on “working” fishing rods is that it will be slippery. This is not a perception problem with pool cues.

#3. Designing an inlay so that is it visually appealing in a given distance isn’t as much ofan issue on a pool cue. Fishing rod handles range from split grips (@2”) to pier rods at about 2’. The proportions that look good on a fly rod grip need to be altered a lot to look good on a longer handle. This means that many different “Patterns” need to be developed to meet the market.

#4. My last point may be way off. I would guess that the number of people who go fishing vs. those that play pool is much larger. More manufacturers making fishing “stuff” more money advertising than those companies building pool cues.

#5. Ok, this is my last point. A guy walking into a place to play pool with a neat case and taking out a custom cue. How many folks could there be there to see that? In my case, I go to the lake and launch my boat. My rods are in the boat and at the most there are 3 other people who are with me. Passive advertising and the opportunity for the huge ego to get stroked are greatly diminished.




Regards,

Ray Jorgensen
[classiccustomwood.com]
ccw@classiccustomwood.com
602 Central Ave. E
Hampton, IA 50441
641-456-4599

Whoa!!! point #5 I never considered. I live in an area where many people fish on PArty Boats which hold anywhere from 10-100 people. The boat docks have hundreds of boats in them, most boat owners speak to each other at some point. I never considered the rest of the world, lol. I guess fishermen aren't going ot Rod Shows showing off their rods, lol.

A few more people I missed previously who do super gripwork & have been there to bounce questions off & share ideas & techniques -Harv Gordon & the guy who started me on this twisted path: Bernie Cohen.

Hunting is also a solitary sport for many people. Sometimes you're with just one or two other guys. But many see fit to spend literally tens of thousands of dollars on their gunstocks and metal work. It's called pride of ownership and I also know fishermen who do the same thing. But they aren't able to find the same type of craftsmen in the rod building world as they can in the gunsmithing world.

It's also not a given that we're talking about decorative work. I think the public tends to see custom rods as just that. Factory type rods with fancy threadwork. It has to be about more than the fancy work. An organization that could press the idea that it's more about precision, quality and performance with nice wood and threadwork thrown in should be the idea. Not many will pay for fancy decorations, but many more will pay for a rod that balances better, casts better, works better, that type of thing.

I have no idea how well a good professional custom rod building organization would go over, but no one will know until somebody tries. $100 a year? I'd join it, so that's one member at least LOL!.

I know there was an attempt to start such a thing back in the late 1990s and it failed or morphed into something else. But was it really given a good effort? Did the idea itself fail or was it the people behind it who failed? Don't toss out a good idea just because it wasn't well implemented.