i build inshore flats rod and have some one who wants me to build off shore marlin rod ,for trolling. what i dont understand is how do you get the blank in the afco handle surly you dont just glue that little end of blank in the cap and go? also need a blank responce.

Alan , call Ray at Fishsticks4u ,804-966-7577. We build a lot of these rods and he knows what to do and is willing to share what he knows . We use the Rainshadow RT blanks , not because we also sell them ,but because of their quality . Give him a call he will be glad to answer your questions.

RodMaker Volume 5 #6 has all the info you'd need, and more.

Yes, the "litte" end of the uni-butt has a ferrule of sorts that is about 3 inches long. The end of the blank is glued into that and then you just "go."

You do want to put a little more thought into the project however. For instance, how is the customer going to be using this rod. From a fighting chair or while standing up? These are entirely different types of fishing and require entirely different type rods.

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I couldn't believe it the first time either, but yes, you just epoxy a few inches of rod into that little cavity. If done properly, the rod would break long before the bond would.

Be careful to align the blank properly though, if you are not careful it's easy to have the rod emerge just a little crooked.

Most guys who troll for marlin want a very stiff blank. I caught a 70 lb white marlin the other day on a rod I made- see below for the recipe. I've made 10 of these now, and they are awesome Atlantic trolling rods. Blue marlin up to 500 lbs have been landed on my rods, as well as many dozens of yellowfin and bluefin tuna. It's not a cheap setup- unless you have a Merrick account you are looking at something like $300 in parts.

blank CALGF755XXH (Calstar graphiter)- cut to make a 5'6" rod
Aftco carded roller guide set
tip top Aftco 114b
foregrip T101-1211
butt Stuart SCB2-BG

If the rod comes out "crooked", how much of a problem would that be? I've never done any of these, I'm just curious if anyone knew

If the blank butt is properly shimmed to the fit the ferrule, it should be straight. If it's not, you could have either a minor or major problem on your hands. A blank butt that is not properly adhered into the ferrule, which a badly crooked rod might indicate, could be a disaster under the fight of a huge fish. Or, the blank may jut out a bit to one side, which wouldn't be a major problem since you're working with a gimbal anyway, but it wouldn't say much about the builder's craftmanship.


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By 'crooked' I think Mike was refering to lining the guides up with the ferrule nock. Either way I don't thing being a little off would ruin the rod, but it would show a lack of craftsmanship...and craftsmanship is what we market as rod builders.

Jay

Two ways you can get crookedness- the guides lining up with the reel, and the blank coming out of the ferrule. I'm just saying to be very careful about both.

You don't want your custom rod sticking out at an odd angle in with the anglers other rods... You want your rod to stand out because it's better- not because it's crooked!

It happened to me once, on the second offshore rod I ever made. It was not any fun at all digging that mess out of the ferrule so I could re-mount the (shorter) rod, and at the cost of a uni-butt I could not afford another...

I build a LOT of rods with aluminum butts. One thing for sure, THE BLANK MUST BE SHIMMED to fit the inside diameter of the ferule!!! Dont just fill the ferule with epoxy and stick the blank in unless its close to the same diameter....A sure fire recipie for a disaster. The way these rods are fished, whether in a stand-up harness or the chair, there is an incredible amount of force and leverage applied to that joint. Typically, the butt is in a gimbal socket(in a standup belt, or the gimbal pin on the chair), and the reel is attatched by straps and clips at the luggs on top of the reel to a back harness. Most of the pull force is applied to the REEL, not the foregrip.

One easy way to shim a trolling butt ferrule:

Most of the ferules are around 3" deep. There is plenty of room to shim with 2 rings of evenly spaced 1/2" masking tape. Wind the tape rings as tightly as possible without breaking the tape to ensure the rings are as hard as possible for minimum diagonal compression when the leverage of the rod applies force(a downward force on the upper ring, an upward force on the lower ring when under load). Most rodbuilding epoxies are designed to remain somewhat pliable to flex with the rod to avoid cracking. That means it will also compress in this situation...the shims shouldnt be allowed to compress, this will allow the adhesive to do its job and bond without much movement. When gluing the ferrule, Try to completely fill the voids between the bushings to ensure the maximum bond from the blank to the inside ferrule wall.

The best way to shim a ferrule if you have the tools at your disposal:

Machine a full length, closely fitting shim from a non resillient material, like a hard wood dowel, a piece of nylon, or even aluminum if possible. A full lenghth bushing will allow 100% adhesion to the blank, as well as the ferrule, with no worries of diagonal compression. If you have access to a wood lathe with a chuck, or an engine lathe, this a pretty basic task. Another way can be done with a drill press, with a bit of inginuity...

Another way can be achieved with a hand drill, benchtop beltsander, and a hole saw. Using a hole saw slightly larger than the ferrule I.D.chucked in a hand drill, cut out a few holes in a piece of hard wood, or good quality plywood. This will produce round wooden discs with a perfectly centered 1/4" hole. Cut enough to stack about 3" high, or slightly less. Stack the discs on a 1/4 X 4" bolt and tighten with a nut and washer. Chuck the end of the bolt into the hand drill. Using the belt sander, you can spin the discs with the drill against the belt to turn the diameter down to accurately "slip fit" into the ferule. Once they are sized to fit, completely coat the inside of the ferule with epoxy, and coat each disc and stack them into the ferrule, clean up any excess epoxy, and clean out the 1/4" hole down the center with a Q tip. Once it has cured, you can carefully drill a hole the size of the blank end using the already centered hole as a pilot for the drill to follow. Usually a flat spade bit close to the diameter of the blank can be used with good results.

Another assembly tip:

Ive found it to be easiest to install the ferule last...after the rod is built and finished. I simply install the grip leaving 3" of blank exposed for the ferrule, build the rod with the guides alligned to the spine, etc...
Then I install the ferule to the aluminim butt and install a reel, and then epoxy the rod and ferule. This serves several purposes.
1. This alows me to perfectly allign the guides to the reel. Dont trust the slot in the end of the ferrule for allignment. The insert that mates to the knock inside the aluminum butt isnt always straight in allignment with the reelseat. I routinely encounter mis alligned knocks, sometimes as much as 3 or 4 degrees. This can be really annoying, especially for multiple rods for the same customer...this throws interchangeability right out the window.
2. This makes for a convienient clamp system to hold things in place while the adhesive cures. I run a small bungee cord through the stripper guide on the rod, and hook each end to the luggs on the reel. This also allows me to occasionally check the allignment and easily make corrections durring the cure process.
3. This also provides a simple "checks and balances" system. Nothing worse than discovering that you forgot to slide the retainer nut and o-ring onto the ferule before gluing everything together...no fun at all!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/04/2006 11:05PM by Scott Throop.

Scott Throop Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Dont trust the slot in the end of the
> ferrule for allignment. The insert that mates to
> the knock inside the aluminum butt isnt always
> straight in allignment with the reelseat. I
> routinely encounter mis alligned knocks, sometimes
> as much as 3 or 4 degrees.



I'm so glad to read that. Not long ago I made a comment while in a group of fishermen about the reel on aluminum butts not always lining up with the guides. This is something that I've encountered many times with factory production rods. One or two of the guys in that conversation stood me down that companies such as the big uni-butt makers would know if their products caused things like that. They basically called me an idiot...but I 'of course' knew better. The knocks are routinely off a little.

Scott, thanks for the ideas on shimming the ferrules. Most of the time the IGFA blanks are sized to fit snuggly (most of the time) into the ferrule of the corresponding unibutt. It is the stand up blanks that can be cut from the butt end, sometimes radically, that need some good shims. I really like the idea of plywood and the hole cutter...THANKS!

Jay

Yup, I have 3 80# curved butts in house right now, one is dead-on straight, the other two when put on the same rod are off....1 at 2 degrees..the other a little less. The customer probably wont even notice if he mixes the butts up, but im gonna mark the butts to the corresponding rod anyways. I also have one straight, and one curved 50lb. butts from a different manufacturer, both are dead straight....good on you Batson!

I also have a "stora butt" that comes apart at the rod, as well as behind the seat on one of my personal rods. Depending on the type fo fishing and the boat im on, I will occasionally flip the reel seat over to an uplocking position, which positions the reel 2" foreward to get away from the rail when im cranking, as well as swich from straight but to curved. When i reverse the seat, the reel sits off to the left a little. flipped again, its dead center, and has nothing to do with loose fit between the reel foot and the hood pockets...this reel foot centers in the hoods perfectly. The nock insert that is in the seat is off. It really isnt a big deal as far as function, just a noticeable flaw that shouldnt be on a $900 quality custom rod with high end Winthrops, leather grips, and all the bells and whistles to make it pretty. Kinda like buying a brand new luxury car that needs a front end allignment it seems to me...but then again I do tend to be too much of a perfectionist sometimes.

thanks for all the help you guys are great!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A “CROOKED” mounting of the Male Cap in the FERRULE of a Uni-Butt (or any ferruled Reel Seat) can produce a tendency for the Rod Blank to “ROLL-OVER” when loaded. This EXTERNAL Torque would be countered by the use of a Gimbal. However, an INTERNAL Torsion would still persist, and try to twist or “wring” the rod blank, even with a Gimbal. In fact, the gimbal would help transmit this internal torsion, IF the ferrule is crooked (if the ferrule axis is not in-line / co-linear with the rod axis). But DO use a Gimbal to prevent the heavy Reel from flopping over – the heavy trolling rod blank can resist a small torsion-wringing force.

If the ferrule is crooked (“kinked”), the extent of this problem depends on the ANGLE between (the plane of the kink) and (the plane of the rod’s bend). The normal plane of the rod’s bend is the same as the plane of symmetry – the 000-180 degree plane. That’s the plane in which the Roller Guides lay. A kink in the Ferrule that lays in the 090-270 degree plane would be in a plane that is able to exert the most TORQUE or TORSION. A Kink that points down in the 000-180 degree Plane has the LEAST torque or torsion and is of no real consequence.

If the ferrule is crooked, it is less obvious when the reel is on the rod, because the weight of the reel will have its own effect on the rod’s roll-over. With the reel off the seat, the guides may weigh enough to make the rod roll-over.

Otherwise, the kink in a mis-aligned ferrule, if it exists, will try to make the rod roll-over, just like when a crooked rod blank jumps when you try to find the spine. A mis-aligned ferrule is no more nor less annoying that a bad rod spine. But because the trolling rod has 10# or 40+# lbs of actual drag-load on the rod blank, the kink’s torque is magnified greatly when it’s in the worst plane.

In the case of a Bent-Butt, even with a poorly aligned Ferrule, the angler is not likely to feel any torque because of the extremely long lever arm in the Bend, which easily counters any rotational roll-over effect from a somewhat mis-aligned Ferrule. -Cliff Hall, FL-USA.

Hey Scott;

Good stuff, I notice that my nooks were a little off on some rods.

As curiousity factor, do you use 5 min epoxy for your tip tops? Have you ever tried the archery glue for offshore rods?

thanks,

Ernie

Ernie, I rarely use epoxy for tips anymore, especially ring guides that are prone to need replacement at some point over the lifespan of the rod. I will occasionally use 5min. on a large roller top if I have to shim it with a layer of thread to improve the fit, because many of the larger tips are sized at rough intervals(ie; 12, 14, 16, 18etc....no half sizes available), and sometimes a blank size will somewhere in between the tip sizes, especially if I trim a bit from the blank tip to "fine tune" the action.
Other than that, Its all hi-temp hot melt for me. The FlexCoat tip adhesive has worked very well for me over the years. I've heard of others who have used the flexcoat GUIDE adhesive(the white stick) for tips...bad idea. The guide adhesive isnt designed for bonding strength, and has a very low melting point. The TIP adhesive(gold colored stick) is a high temp adhesive and has much more bonding power, and formulated specifically for tips, according to FlexCoat.
There is a trick to make this stuff work correctly though. Prep the surfaces as if it were any other surface you are gluing. scuff the blank end with a piece of grey scothbrite. Clean out the tube with a q tip and denatured alcohol(if the q tip will fit of course). Tip: If the wife or girlfreind wears mascara, ask her to save the little brushes for you! A quick cleanup in some alcohol or acetone, these tiny bottle brushes are great for cleaning out smaller tip tops...as well as many other uses!.
I use a small butane micro torch to melt the adhesive, rather than a lighter. The hotter this stuff is, the nore liquid it becomes. The more liquid it is, the more "wetting" of the surfaces to be bonded, as well as more distribution over the surfaces. To help insure this, heat the stick, let it slightly cool to where it is still soft, pich off a small piece and roll it into a small cylinder to fit into the tips' tube. then heat the stick again, apply a bead to the tip of the blank, heat the end of the tip tube until the adhesive inside melts, quickly heat the glue on the blank tip(carefully...dont heat the blank...direct the pointed side of the flame at the edges of the glue), and simply push the top onto the blank with a twisting motion to distribute the adhesive and squeese out any trapped air, and quickly allign the tip to the spine of the blank, reelseat ,or guides...depending on what stage you are installing the tip. The nice thing about the hot melt is that you can go back later and re-allign the tip if needed by just carefully heating the tube.

Havnt tried the archery stuff yet, but i do know some archery guys use the flex coat stuff for arrows.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/06/2006 04:51PM by Scott Throop.

Thanks Scott,

I think I am going to try the hot melt for my next rod. The last rod I did, i would have like to move the tip just a hair, but with 5 minute epoxy; it is impossible. I think the hot melt will be good enough for me unless I am using 130lbs class gear for GBFT.

Ernie