I normally use 2' - 3' of 8# flurocarbon for tippet between the swivel and hook when Salmon fishing. Would 4' - 5' of flurocarbon tippet be slightly stronger (elasticity-wise) than perhaps 2' - 3' - or is 4# really just 4#? Since going to a "grip knot", my tippet survival has really improved and I'd like to try lighter lines. Thanks.

Tim,
No, I do not think that a longer piece of line will be any stronger. It should require the same number of pounds to break independent of its length. A longer piece of line does seem to be stronger and more difficult to break but I think that is just because the longer it is the more it will stretch. Also I think that lines are like rods in that the tensile strength drops based upon how rapidly the force is applied. The more rapidly the force is applied the lower the strength.
However, from my experience with line you have already hit on the key and that is the knot. Lines lose a good deal of their strength at the knots, if they are not damaged they will almost always break at the knot. I have not tested different knots myself but I have read that from 20% to 50% of the strength of the line is lost in the knot. I have also read claims that some knots maintain 95% of the lines strength but frankly I am a little skeptical of these claims.

Someone else must have some better data on this.

Tim ur really doing an injustice to the fish using tippet any lighter than 8 or 10lb for salmon. i've used 10lb fluro for them with my float rod, and enjoy puttin' the wood to em'. get em in and let em go..........fluro doesnt have the stretch that reg mono does.

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information,which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance--that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
- Herbert Spencer

Tim ur really doing an injustice to the fish using tippet any lighter than 8 or 10lb for salmon. i've used 10lb fluro for them with my float rod, and enjoy puttin' the wood to em'. get em in and let em go..........fluro doesnt have the stretch that reg mono does.

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information,which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance--that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
- Herbert Spencer

If you will use a Palomar knot, you'll find that your line will no longer break at the knot.

Some years ago at a fishing show we were next to the folks from Varvas (Silver Thread - Bagely) and they had a line strength testing machine. Every time they did a test the line broke at the knot. I couldn't see how that was going to tell them much about the line, except that since every line parted at the knot, I guess they figured everything was equal so they'd just compare from there.

I showed the factory guy how to tie the Palomar and for the rest of the weekend he never had another line part at the knot. The line always parted first.

I don't think a longer length of line is stronger, but it is perhaps more forgiving of surges or sudden impacts. And this would be due simply to allowing a bit more stretch. The same amount of load will still break it, but that load will have to move farther in order to do so.

............

Tim,
I think that I agree with Danny both on his point about line size and also about letting the fish go. I think that I have already killed too many fish in my life and the fun is in catching them not in killing them unless maybe if you or your family are going to eat them.
As far as the 10 pound line is concerned you must have a heck of a lot of room where you fish. There is a spot where I fish in the Fall for Chinook where they average over 25 pounds and are right in out of the ocean and really hot and I do not think that I would ever land one with 10 pound test line.

Tom,
I certainly do not dispute your word but I am still skeptical about the knot not being the weakest spot even with a Palomar knot. The problem is that any time the line changes direction, which it obviously has to do with any knot, stress tends to be focused at that point. This is why when fishing and the line is wrapped around something large the place it is then most likely to break is at the tip of the rod. Again I am not disputing your word but I would like to see how they ran their test.

Tie up some test lines with the Palomar knot and pull them until something breaks. The line won't break at the knot. I guarantee it.


..........

I can say from personal experience that the Palomar knot is abolutely
without a doubt the best knot (strength wise) I have ever used. I use
it when ever possible and can't remember the line EVER breaking at the
knot. Saw Hank Parker demonstrate it some years back with a test machine
of some sort. He tested many different knots and all were weaker except the
Palomar. No marketing either. Several line Mfg'rs and type were used and NO
brands were NAMED.

Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..

I gotta side with Emory on the line issue. The longer it is, the more shock absorbtion you have, even with fluoro. There is SOME stretch to it. Not much, but there is some, and the longer it is, the more it can stretch. It isn't actually stronger, just more forgiving. That said though, I tend to overline my gear as a rule. The older I get, the more sensitive I'm getting. Hook the fish, land the fish fast, then keep it to eat if it is big enough, or release it if it isn't... or if I just don't really want to deal with preparing carp or gar to make it edible.

I also gotta go with Tom on the Palomar. I've been using it exclusively for a couple of years now and can't imagine ever going back to my previous favorite, the Trilene type and its variants, some of which I think may even be my own creations. My theory on why it works so well is that there is a lot of surface contact, but the directional changes are far less radical than most all other knots. I can't prove it of course, and will not even attempt to try to appear intelligent with trying as I've been flying a mindless desk job too long and can barely decipher my Marks' standard handbook of M.E. these days. All I can say is that it not only works, but is one of the easiest knots to tie. It's amazing to me that it hasn't become a standard by now.

Tom and Ray,
I will not argue whether or not the Palomar knot is the strongest knot. But I think that I will argue that the knot, any knot, cannot be stronger than the line it is tied in. The line is going to break where the stress tends to be concentrated and that is going to be at the knot. But I will do some testing myself and then apologize to you or start cussing at you.

Emory,
I look forward to hearing your results. I know you will be surprised!

Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..

Tom, Ray, Mick,
I just went into my shop and tied the Palomar knot 10 times in about 2 feet of 10 pound test P Line. I tied it on one end to a swivel that was about 1/2 inch long, the loop in the swivel was wire about 1/32 inch in diameter, and on the other end I just wrapped the line several times around a scrap piece of blank that was about 3/8 inch in diameter and I pulled on it until the line broke. Frankly, I expected it to break at the swivel every time.
I was surprised that It broke 5 times at the knot but it broke 5 times at the point that it was wrapped around the blank and NOT at the knot.
The conclusion that I draw from this primitive test is that the knot is an excellent knot and is almost as strong as the line. A much stronger knot relative to the line than I expected. Almost good enough that I owe you an apology BUT, fortunately for me and my ego, not quite because it broke every time at either one end of the line or the other. In 10 attempts it did not break once anywhere in the middle of the line. In other words the knot is almost as strong as the line, but not quite.
Good enough though that I may change from the knot that I have been using.

Thanks Emory!

Your honest results encourages me to perform some tests
myself. Maybe will need to rethink my opinion of that knot!
I do know in "real fishing conditions" I have ALWAYS broke
the line in between the knot and my rod tip and casting spinners
for kings here in the Sacramento River I have snagged up and
had to break off more than a few spinners! However, now that I
think about it maybe the little curl at the end of the line that is
present when a knot fails is not always present when the Palomar
knot fails. Only some tests will confirm or deny that hypotheses.

At least you can admit you WERE surprised!! LOL!

Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..

Emory,
I know that you are an engineer by trade and I respect the living (blank) out of what you say. In a past life I was simply an engineering technician by trade. I wouldn't even consider comparing brain pans with you. But the knot works. It is better than most, if not all, knots that most fishermen are using. The palomar isn't the end all/be alll to lost fish, but it is better than what we grew up with. In my own static tests I have had similar results as you, but when you do the same tests with other knots, the difference is very clear. It is simply a better knot.

While the Polomar knot is widely used, and retaines "~95 % of line strength", and has landed a untold number of large fish--I've just recently learned of a new knot, at least to me, and I'm starting to use the double improved clinch or rivers inlet knot from British Columbias famed Rivers Inlet; think huge and powerful Chinook salmon! This knot is said to retain "~100% of line strength". But the best thing is I'm going to try it out when
I get off work in the morning, on Salmon!!! I'll keep you posted if it makes any difference, rather un-siencentific testing on my part compaired to some, but fun non the less!

Fred Crum
Dixon, Ca.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/01/2006 02:50AM by Fred Crum.

Go out and do the test again. Use both flurocarbon, and mono. You will find flurocarbon will break at the knot alot more often than mono, when useing the polomar. I jumped on the bandwagon when flurocarbon came out and VERY soon went back to mono.(lost to many fish from line break) I found out just recently about the "double improved clinch" While still not the 95%, it is a much better knot with flurocarbon.

While my tests have not been in a lab setting (all done on the water) they are accurate enough for me. I bass fish alot and probably flip 75% of the time. The shock I deliver to the line is very great when setting the hook. For me? I'll keep useing mono untill they come up with a knot of 95% strength for flurocarbon.

Mark Syck

SYCKO Custom Rods
There Are No Limits To The Imagination

Another plus to the Palomar knot is that it's very easy to tie. Anybody who fishes in cold weather, or in the very early or late hours can testify to how difficult some knots are to tie. And if they're not tied correctly, it doesn't matter how good they're supposed to be.

Knots typically slip a bit just before they break. The Palomar doesn't slip and because it effectively doubles the line at the point of the knot, it's stronger than the others.

............

The only thing about the Gryp Knot which to me looks like a modified looped nail knot, is that you need the tool. I can tie 100 percent knots like the Palomar and Uni knots without a tool and the Uni does all the functions of the Gryp Knot and can be tied in all weather conditions and in the dark.

Another vote for palomar. Tested some braided line for breaking strength. Never broke at the knot, always someplace on the line. Yes, also easiest good knot to tie.

Mo