what is shelf life of color preserver?
it looked a little thicker than normal !
after applying the first coat and letting it dry for 24 hrs i went back to my little room to mess with it some more and it looked like soap bubbles sitting on the thread
all the way around it !
is the pres. bad or do you think it just dried to fast?
THANKS FOR ANY AND ALL HELP

david williams

Wow that must be thick. I am not sure if there is a shelf life. When mine gets a little thick looking I thin it out a bit, too thick and it just sits on the threads and doesn't soak the way through. Found that out the hard way, wound up with some nasty blotches on some lighter threads.

I would try thinning it out before you toss it.

What kind of cp are you using? I use Gudebrod, and this will happen if you introduce air in the application process. Brushing is the most common way I have found to introduce air. I put some on with the applicator bottle, then move it around with a spatula. I have also found that if I do get some bubbles, I can quickly blot it with a coffee filter and get rid of them before they set.
This is probably like a lot of things. You have to experiment and try different things. Eventually, you will develop processes for everything. Heck, I have made a lot of rods that ended up either stripped and redone, or given to friends.
Steve

Oh...the pifalls of CP......

I learned that before I used the stuff I had to eyeball it to make sure it is not too viscous. If it is it will not penetrate and wet the thread like it is supposed to and will just sit there pretty much on the surface of the thread and dry into a film that WILL capture air bubbles. Sounds like that is what pretty much happened to you. I don't normally use CP because of its associated problems, but when I do use it for repairs or matching previous work I make sure it is watery enough to SOAK in quickly. I'll cut it with a little water to thin it.

Lou

Like Steve said, AIR was either trapped in the CP when you mixed it up, before you applied it; ... and / or while you applied it with a brush; ... And / or the AIR that was IN the Thread was TRAPPED IN THE VISCOUS CP AS IT TRIED TO ESCAPE, AS THE CP TRIED to SOAK IN. ...

Adjust CP viscosity / "THIN" according to manufacturer's recommendations or the advice you will get, after you Reply with the brand CP you are using, how you apply it, and the type of Thread you are putting it on. ... Do the colors of thread you are using really NEED CP, or is this just a "too be safe" idea. [That's another can of worms.]

Since this is no longer your first coat, you may need to lightly scrape off / open the bubbles in the hopes of improving CP penetration, and in an effort to eliminate permanent "bubble-domes" and iridescent patches under the to-be-applied Epoxy Thread Finish. Usually, these will NOT go away by themselves. The edge of a credit card is usually safe; back-scraping with a razor blade is also effective if you are good at it, and don't twitch forward or slice down or across. ... -Cliff Hall.

I keep waiting for Andy's cp. If it's as good as his other products, it will be the way to go.

Actually what you have there are the resulting surface blemishes where air bubbles rose or popped. You can finish over them and most likely they won't show.

There is a great downside to thinning CP. When you do it, what you're then putting on your wraps is mostly just water. And water is just going to evaporate and will not seal your wraps.

If you need to add just a tad to make things a bit more manageable, fine. But don't overdo it. A very thin CP that supposedly soaks easily down to the rod blank is mostly just water. It won't seal your threads no matter how well it penetrates or soaks in.

CP problems are rare, but they do happen. As much as I like the Gudebrod 811 product, the consistency of their batches leaves a lot to be desired.

..........

I know when I have enough solids to seal my threads with the CP when it dries and there is a glossy film on the top. I would rather put 3 thin coats on that seal all the way to the blank than chance not sealing all the way through. Just my way of doing things. If you have bubbles in your CP you are playing with it too much, just wet the brush and spin the blank.

I must be missing something here! What is the purpose of getting the CP through to the blank? It doesn't bond it to the blank. I would think that once it encapsulates the surface of the thread, it is sealed and nothing will penetrate it, including more CP. I could well be wrong, but on a tightly packed wrap, does CP (or finish) even actually penetrate the thread itself?? It wouldn't on metallic but what about NCP, Nylon, Poly, etc.?

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/05/2006 08:54AM by Mike Barkley.

Nylon thread can't really be penetrated by anything - it's not very porous, if at all.

You can hope, for whatever reason, to get something down inbetween the threads and to the blank and I think this is what most people are talking about when they mention "penetration."

Scott made a good point - when the thread is a bit glossy on top you've probably got a good coverage with your CP. I hadn't thought about it, but that's how mine usually look after one good coat. I don't think I've ever had a blotch or dark area nor any guides come loose.

...............

Mike, Tom, I had let my CP get a little thick and when I used it like that I had some problems with bleed though and blotches. I thinned it out and the problem went away even with the same threads.

If you take a close look at nylon or polyester thread it is not 1 single strand it is multiple threads twisted together, usually 2. What I want is for the CP to be able to sink down in between those seperate threads and seal it that way. I pack thread rather compusively, but there will always be some kind of a gap, I like the idea of the CP getting in and sealing all those gaps. I also like the thought of the CP getting to the blank and filling all those little gaps, makes things a bit tighter. OCD??? Maybe!! OK probably :-)

Thanks, Tom! That cleared up some of my confusion. I also get the "glossy" look and assume, at that point that my tread is sealed. The reason that I ask about penetration to the blank is because I do a LOT of repair/guide replacement on factory rods, which don't use CP and in I see probably half that don't seem to have any, or very little, finish on the blank or underside of the thread while some do. Is that because of the packing?? I would think that with a tightly packed wrap, a viscuous liquid like CP or finish would have a hard time getting through

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

With epoxy, the longer the pot life the more it will tend to get down to the blank. The shorter the pot life, or the longer the builder takes to get the finish applied, the less it will tend to get down to the blank. Penetration so to speak, is often more a matter of how long the coating stays "wet."

...................

I've said it before, I'll say it again, and with a little work it can be seen by anybody who expends a bit of time and effort. Use loose tension and/or do poor packing and you'll get great "bonding" of finish to blank. Use normal/good tension and better than factory packing and you'll get very little if any bonding. Meaning that if you do what I consider decent thread work, and then strip it off, whether or not you use CP, you'll notice that the thread pops off with no effort and you'll have little to no residue of anything on the rod blank. Do crappy work and you'll have a lot of glue lines to strip with much more effort.

I've seen the arguments about how guides on high end factory rods are so difficult to strip/clean because of lack of CP. It's not because they didn't use CP folks.. factory rods have better "bonding" (aka glue lines) NOT because they, as a rule do not use CP, but because they are wrapped at Warp 9 speed by outwrappers with little to no packing. Pack em tight and not much stuff gets through, CP or not. A lot of high output folks use very dark colors only.. the customer has no say in the matter and perhaps has never even been presented with options, only that they can get guides wrapped in black.. maybe with some gold trim if they want to pony up some bucks for some "frivolous stuff" like a trim ring.

That said, I have issues with just one brand of CP (Glass Coat), which is what I still call a new product, and that is with a thread fading issue only, not because of an integrity (strength) issue. This was tested with Myles Boone in that weird land down under of kangaroos, wallabies, cute blonde chicks, scary snakes and weird bald guys (like Myles) who catch snakes for fun. It really does cause fading or at least contribues to it. I've gotten lots of nasty emails on this same test/subject, but hey.. it happens.. Sorry guys.. that's just how it is. Something doesn't quite work... But outside of that particular brand, for "adhesion" and initial color preserving.. there is nothing wrong with CP.

Paint a peice of blank with CP, then paint it and some more bare blank with finish. Then when it's dry, strip it all to bare blank. If you can honestly tell me that you noticed a significant difference in which was more difficult to peel off, I'll buy you a beer and call you a liar, only because I've done it several times and couldn't do it.

Glass Coat CP has been around for nearly 20 years now. I used it extensively during the early 1990s and did not have any problems with it. I have not used it in the past 4 or 5 years.

Your mention of wrap tension makes good sense and very likely does have something to do with how much of anything makes it all the way down the blank. The important thing to remember is that it is the thread that binds the guides to the blank, not the CP or the epoxy.

.........

Does anyone make a color preserver that does? Everything I have tried darkens light colored thread even on a white blank. It would seem like an ideal color preserver would sit on top of the nylon and not soak in at all thereby preventing the finish from "wetting" the thread.

Bob, that's pretty much what they all do! I just did a pink madeira wrap on a blue/green blank (almost black) and while it obviously darkened while wet, it dried to just about the identical spool color when it dried and the finish didn't affect it at all. I normally use 811 but on this one I happened to use some Flex Coat CP that I had on hand. Are you getting a good coat that dries kind of glossy? Don't be stingy with it. It might look crappy but when you put the finish on it disappears. Tight packing??
Try practicing on a piece of scrap until you get the hang of it.


Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Depending on the blank you're wrapping on, you can just about count on threads losing a shade or two even with CP. Just like painting a dark wall with light paint, you can't expect a light colored thread to stay perfectly "on the spool" color when used over a dark colored blank.

The 811 seems to offer the best color retention, however.

.........

I would say that the pink probably dried a shade (maybe two) darker. Barely enough to notice unless you had the spool and wrap side by side.

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Thanks Mike and Tom, I understand about light over dark and any liquid that penetrates is going to make it darker. I think I am getting fairly good packing (I just started wrapping again after about a 20 year layoff so I have a lot to re-learn. I guess in a perfect world I'm looking for a cp that lays on the thread like a sheet of celophane without penetrating at all and just seals it so the epoxy can't penetrate either. I'll keep asking dumb questions because the answers are good. Besides, I'm used to getting laughed at; I'm building surf rods in Arkansas!