Hey you ole' salts. I am going to use Color Preserver...Cliff, Uncle Russ, and a couple of other ole' salts convinced me into it. Just want to know the technique that has worked well for you guys that have used it. I take it that CP is applied and then lightly torched with heat? Then let dry and apply the thread finish? Look forward to the reults with it as the colors will be more lustious than NCP I suppose.

Thnaks much guys.
Paul

NO heat!!!! I just brush a liberal coat on, let it dry and then add another coat. I let dry overnight and then apply finish.

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

I would not recommend the use of heat. How you apply and the number of coats depends on the which CP you use but there is no reason that I know of to use heat. In fact, though I am as guilty as the rest of us, I would suggest now that if you have mixed your finish correctly, without introducing bubbles, that you do not use heat on your finish either. I have come to the conclusion that it creates more problems than it cures. I use two coats of Gudebrod 811CP allowing each coat to dry over night and then a coat of Permaglos before applying the finish.

With Gudebrod, you don't want to brush it in, or you will cause bubbles. I put a drop down, using the applicator bottle, and move it around with a spatula so that it saturates threads. You can also move it around with a brush, just be careful not to generate any bubbles.
This is the only kind of CP I use, but have heard it is about the best as far as holding colors. But, it sometimes is too thick, and you have to thin it with alcohol.
Steve Broadwell

I'm just curious out of the 2500 color preserver posts on the board, how could you possibly come to teh conclusion that you apply heat to it? Seriously, spend a few hours reading through teh archives before you do anything else or ask any mroe questions

[www.rodbuilding.org]

It's called the I-N-T-E-R-N-E-T and bad information abounds! Seriously, I have seen other rod building sites where color preserver was discussed and some people mentioned heating it. I doubt they had any idea why they were heating it or what the heat was supposed to do for them. But I've seen it mentioned. Not here but on some other sites. This site is a LOT better than most but even here you see bad info come up from time to time.

Billy...
If you would have read my post, it was a question about the use of heat, not a conclusion. FYI, in a previous message, an experienced builder suggested using it. And me being the rookie, I was to inquire about it....due to my complete lack of knowledge about it. Also, I don't have a few hours to spend reading archives, so therfore I will continue to inquire respectfully.

Thanks for the other input you guys, it's very much appreciated. I could tell that the use of CP is an ongoing debate as fly rod weights are. Thanks again.

Respectfully,
Paul

Paul Rotkis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Also, I don't have a few hours to spend reading archives, so therfore I
> will continue to inquire respectfully.

Unfortunately, if you were thinking about heating CP you SHOULD be spending hours readin garchives & BOOKS. THE freebie internet is great for quick answers, but people use it as their only resource....you'll end up burnt in teh long run. THEre are several books on teh craft, none are that expensive, none recommend using heat for CP.

Guess I'm going to have to jump in here and open a can of worms. Here goes, I'm not too sure where all this heat everything info comes from but it is one of my pet peaves. Look at my pictures in my gallery, in almost 30 years of building rods I have seldom used heat for any finishing operation, neither on my CP or epoxy. I personally believe it causes more problems than it cures. I really wonder if people who do use it really know why other than someone said to use it. If you learn to apply finish without bubbles and not using heat I believe you will have a better end product. Also follow the manufacturer recomendations to the letter, they have tested their products and know how they are to be used. I cannot speak for other builders but I know what works for me, if heat works for you then use it but I see almost no or limited use for it.

I don't think any respected book or work on the subject of finishing recommends using heat other than for quick and limited bubble removal from epoxy, once on the wraps. Other than that, it's mis-information that as John points out, has been spread via the internet.

I'm glad Paul asked before he got into trouble and ruined his wraps. The purpose of this board is for just that kind of thing.

As Billy noted, there is a lot of information on the subject on this board and others. It's important to read all you can and then try to find the consensus of opinion.

...............

I think Jim Upton has made a very good point. I recently discovered that after a coup of coats of CP appling a coat of Permagloss makes the thread brighter IMO. I use CP on everything, NCP, metallics, black, etc. I am now going to start adding a coat of Permagloss before I put the finish. I think the one coat of Permagloss makes the thread look better.

Ed Smith

Most rodbuilders develop their procedures from infomation from others and what works for them. I used all available information sources to set up procedures to get the results I want. I hit the road and watched some of the larger volume builders work whose stuff has been on the market for quite some time. On another post about finish recently I mentioned that I used OEM information to keep from directly mentioning a company name. I tend to trust the information that I get from the providers of the things that I use. If what they say in print proves to work for me I end up using the suggested procedures within the context of the way it was written. Hopefully if some of these procedures are proven to be wrong I will certainly change my way of doing things. Evidently Tom has some information that is not available to me which will be published in Rodmaker about the use of acetone.

The one thing that is kinda bad about some of the posts that describe problems or procedures the details are sometimes sketchy. If you are talking about CP problems what kind of rods, thread and how many are involved. At present I am wondering if Doc Ski uses his CP procedures of flooding and thread packing with wet CP on his big stand up roller guides.

Now about acetone and heating finish - take a look at what one of the major suppliers provides in their packages and on the their company Web Site. If you read that and then review Tom's exact statement in the above thread there will actually be no difference. Based on that information I developed procedures for use of acetone and flame for bubble release.

The flame is applied with my bare hand in place on the rod to prevent excessive heat and the acetone of less than 4% by volume.

[www.flexcoat.com]

Hopefully my reading of all the stuff I have the time to read will allow me to separate the wheat from the chaff! I do not use CP on underlying thread on guide wraps. It does not stop me from using CP on the top layer of thread if I apply finish and wrap over for the final color retention layer using CP. I never have used Permaglos but Tom's comment about it being the strongest and Jim Upton's method of use has made me order some to try. That type of thing is why this board is so valuable to me.

Gon Fishn



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/31/2006 09:35AM by Bill Stevens.

Why not eliminate the whole CP problem all together???? Use NCP thread!! Why was NCP thread even invented? Did someone many, many years ago have problems with CP or did they just want to eliminate a step in the construction?

I used to use standard thread and CP many years ago. When I started back building rods just three years ago, I went with the NCP variety because after putting some design thought in, I didn't like the fact that my epoxies were adhered to the "CP" and not impregnating the thread; similar to finishing wood where a sealer coat is applied prior to the final varnish or polyurethane. I like my finish IN the threads not just ON them.

And another thing, the only time HEAT should ever be used around rod building is from a nice wood stove in the shop!!!

As with any aspect of rod building, or anything for that matter, take your time - High quality should NEVER be rushed!

Charlie

I don't think that there is such a thing as a CP problem!! Any problem should rightfully be called "User" problem. CP is used on millions of rods and if there were actually a problem with it, it wouldn't still be on the market. It is a personal preference and if one chooses not to use it, it should be due to the cosmetic effect that is desired and not because of any perceived "CP problem". There is no comparison to the vibrant look of regular thread (with or without CP) compared to the rather bland, paint like look of NCP thread.

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

The look of NCP purple and Nylon purple develops two distinct different colors. I am plagued with a lot of customers wanting LSU pruple and gold and the color choice can be serious indeed. NCP threads tend to be a flatter and duller version of the base color. The richest and most vibrant is the nylon thread. If you want it translucent do not use CP - if you want it opaque and still the purple color on the spool use nylon with CP. The colors of thread are all different and there is no rule that says one is the only way to go. You can have your cake and eat it too.

Charlie you did not mention what kind of rods you built. If you are talking about heavy stand ups with a lot of thread layers that need maximum strength I agree with no CP for maximum build strength. I can do that and still get the color I want on top when three wraps are involved.

If you are building a standup with four layers of thread and your first coat of finish is applied. How long to you watch it on the dryer to burst bubbles. They do come and they can get involved in air escape from the tunnel area. I can not baby sit a rod for an hour after finish application. I use controlled torching help me with force flo air escape and bubble bursting. I am kinda glad a wood stove is never never needed in South Louisiana. I may end up sitting by the fire and snoozing and not building rods.

Choices to keep thread the same color
1. NCP
2. Nylon with CP
3. Nylon with a white or silver underwrap.

1. NCP looks like doo
2. Too many CP'd guides end up looking really, really bad a short time after the rods are used.
3. Guide foot cracking and rust show up through the wraps.

Bill,

Do keep in mind that "major supplier" and "major manufacturer" are two entirely different things. I don't think you will ever find a manufacturer of epoxy that would recommend adding any sort of solvent to their product.

..........

Billy,
What do you mean by #2 "Too many CP'd guides end up looking really, really bad a short time after the rods are used"?? Looking bad in what way? I've got rods that are 10 years old (all my rods have CP)and I can't tell any difference between the guide wraps and the butt wraps in appearance. Are you talking about appearance or something else? I don't build the big rods like you, but I really can't find any difference, but I really don't know what I'm looking for!

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

The wraps get a white haze, teh epoxy seems to crak easier. I only have one rod that looks like this, but I know several other peopel from different places who have ran into teh same exact thing. I know others which have had no problems.

There are + & - to everythign we do, just when you think you have it all figured out, you get a curveball thrown at you. I just wanted to list what I thought were 3 negatives with each method.

I was just curious. Maybe the fact that I build nothing bigger than musky rods is why I have never actually seen the cracking that seems to plague some of the bigger rods.

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!