Hey guys does a wood insert mated to skeleton reel seat hurt the sensativity or should I stick with the graphite Fuji? I want to play with my new lathe but don't want to sacrifice performance. By the way it will be going on a spinning outfit. I just got my CTS blank from Andy. All I can say is WOW? After seeing the Cobalt Blue I've suddenly becomed concerned on the rods looks as well as its performance.
Thanks for your help
Mike

Mike,
Rod sensitivity is usually described as the stiffness divided by the weight but this is a gross over simplification. It is not the weight but the distribution of the mass and stiffness is not a number but a curve. (Weight or mass has dramatically more effect toward the tip of the rod than toward the butt and as we apply more and more force to the rod it deflects more and more and the stiffness gets higher and higher.)
If we ignore how the impulse or vibration of the fishes bite is transmitted through the line, from the line through the guides and down the blank, all of which can get very complex, and just focus on your concern of how the different handle materials affect sensitivity it is primarily a function of the mechanical impedance of the material. And the mechanical impedance is determined by the square root of the elasticity and the mass density of the material.
In short a wood insert is going to have higher mass density and lower elasticity than a graphite insert so it is going to be less sensitive or not transmit vibrations as well as graphite which has a lower mass density and high elasticity. However, I would not worry too much about using a wood insert because the effect that the added weight or mass density will have decreases approximately exponentially from the tip of the rod to the butt of the rod so the decrease in sensitivity with a wood insert will not be large.
If you think that the wood is attractive use it. If you want the absolute maximum in sensitivity use the graphite. If you want a number or want to know how to calculate the difference send me an e-mail.

Mike,
One thing you could do is shorten the threaded barrel of the reel seat
and just put a nub of cork or check and no fore grip. When holding the
rod your index finger can then rest directly on the blank and feel the
vibrations before they even get to the seat!.

Also, I have used a skeliton seat WITHOUT any insert and the entire blank
in exposed and the reel floats in the seat hoods just above the blank. This
may not be very comfortable fro a spinning rod though. Mine is a casting rod.

Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..

Mike,
Along with what Ray said, a small (inch or less) "winding check" against the seat , made of the same wood as the insert and no foregrip, really looks sharp and reduces the weight while allowing your finger or thumb to be place directly on the rod. I, for one, much prefer wood on a rod and feel that whatever is lost is miniscule in the real world. Keep in mind that I know nothing about physics/engineering and can only speak from my own experience.

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Overall, Mass Density is probably the most important aspect of sensitivity there is. Increasing the weight without a corresponding increase in stiffness or rigidity reduces the sensitivity. The real question for you is - how much?

A simple wood insert in a reel seat isn't going to make a huge difference. Some, but not a tremendous amount within the confines of what we really refer to when we talk about sensitivity.

I'd go with what Emory said - use it if you like it. Or do as Raymond suggested, leave off the foregrip and allow your finger to rest on the blank. Some creative thinking will probably allow you to use your lathe, build a nice looking rod and still have something which is plenty "sensitive." Or make up a fun and interesting experiment - build two identical rods, one with wood insert, decorative butt wrap, etc., and one with the absolute minimum of additional items - just the graphite seat, cork split grip, no foregrip, etc. Go out and use both and learn a lesson that will answer many questions for you. Plus, you'd get to build two rods all in the name of scientific experimentation.


............

I would also be concerned about what is being used for bushings on the graphite reel seat being able to transmit the vibrations of the bite.

Mick.
Wood has a natural resinence that is not found in graphite/plastic composites and it has been my experience that the wood transmits the smallest bites better. Funny, no one would argue that hypalon is more sensitive than cork, yet isn't cork a wood? I would use the wood, maybe a nice light Maple or burl. Until someone invents a better accoustic material than wood i won't change. Don't see a lot of plastic guitars around here.
Regards Paul.

You might want to consider getting a bit fancy with your wood insert and make it something like the REC SMX780 reel seat that uses a wood insert with cut outs that leave the blank exposed. I built a spinning rod using this reel seat and really like it. I think you could accomplish this fairly easily with a drum sander on a drill press or perhaps set up a sander usng your lathe. Just a thought...

Jim Smith

Mike - I have built a few skeleton reel seats and found the wood makes for a better transmission of vibration and indication of the bite. I don't usually use an arbor on my skeleton seats (I use a file and taper the fit) and I think the wood mates on more surface area of the blank. I think you will find that the wood feels warmer in your hand than the fuji and I love the look of wood. The one thing I would add is if this is for Bass or fresh water go with larger reel seat I like the 17mm instead of the 16mm it seems to fill the hand better.

Scott,
You are right, all of the materials from the line to the fisherman's hand will have an effect including as you point out the bushings that are used between the graphite handle and the blank. As the vibrations pass from one material to another the amplitude will increase and the velocity decrease if the vibrations pass from a material of lower to a material of higher mechanical impedance and conversely the amplitude will drop and the velocity will increase if the vibrations pass from a material of higher mechanical impedance to a material of lower mechanical impedance. Each material will also damp the vibrations to some degree. The damping basically causes some of the energy in the vibrations to be dissipated in heat. I do not really know what the mass density and elasticity and therefore the mechanical impedance of the different shim materials is but I would guess that masking tape is going to be poor, dry wall tape and epoxy better and the the foam shims the best.

Paul,
Almost all mechanical structures have a resonance including those structures made of plastic and graphite composite. The most important resonance that we deal with is the resonance of the blank and it is made of a composite. The next time you see an electric guitar take a close look at it. You will more than likely find that it is made of plastic.
I will bet that you are right about hypalon and cork though.

Emory-Play an unamplified electric guitar and see if you like the sound-there will be almost none because it has almost no resonance. The electric guitar gets it's sound from the electronic pickups, not the guitar body.

David,
I have been an amateur luthier for over 20 years, and have built and repaired quite a number of electric guitars, experimented with lot's of pickups and electronics etc... I have to politely disagree with you a little bit. The pickups do indeed have a huge effect on a guitars sound, but so does the wood. The same pickup on bodies of alder, ash, mahogony, Koa etc...will all sound different for lot's of reasons . Add a laminate maple top, and then you have something different again. As for Emory's assumption of most guitars being plastic, the only ones I am aware of were made by Ned Steinberger and Dan Armstrong back in the 70's and 80's, neither of which were really plastic, nor all that well recieved in any significant numbers. 99.9% of the guitars being built today are made from multiple pieces of mostly alder and to a lesser degree, basswood and ash glued together. The higher end guitars are usually one or two piece made from alder, swamp ash, mahogony, Koa, Walnut and a few others, often with a flamed maple laminate top for added aesthetics/tonal quality.

Of course this has nothing to do with rodbuilding so I won't go off on a tangent regarding tonewoods, but David....we need to have a jam in High Point in 2007....


Andy Dear
Lamar Fishing Products

Let's do it!

Timberlake says you're quite the rocker.....me, I lost my long hair years ago...actually I lost all hair years ago...


Andy Dear
Lamar Fishing Prdoucts

David,
The plastic guitar body has a resonance like almost all mechanical structures but I suspect that you are right that this resonance has very little if anything to do with the sound of the guitar. The resonant frequency may be low enough in amplitude or frequency that you cannot hear it. I really do not know. A plastic is certainly going to have higher damping than wood.
When any guitar is played the vibration starts in the string or strings whether it is wood or plastic. This will cause sympathetic vibrations in other strings, in the air cavity in the guitar and yes also in the wood or other materials that the guitar is made of. These sympathetic vibrations will be mainly at harmonics of the frequency of the string. The sound that you hear is the sum of all of these vibrations. I could be mistaken about this but if I remember correctly the amplitude of the fundamental, coming from the strings, is quite a bit higher in amplitude than any of the harmonics in a string instrument. This means that more of the sound is coming from the strings rather than the body of the instrument. I think that only horn instruments generate harmonics that are higher in amplitude than the fundamental.
But back to the original point. How well wood will transmit vibrations is mainly a function of the mechanical impedance of the wood determined by the mass density and the elasticity of the wood. Obviously there are a huge number of types of wood with a very wide range of mass densities and elasticities and naturally how well they transmit vibrations will vary. There are other materials that will transmit vibrations better than any wood. Graphite is one of these materials.

Sorry for double post.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/29/2006 02:08PM by Emory Harry.

Andy,
I have no doubt that you are right about what electric guitars are made of. I was not really assuming that they were all made of plastic I was just attempting to convince David that other materials other than wood also have resonances and that other materials can transmit vibrations as well, some even better, than wood.

Oh, I am absolutely sure you're correct about that (vibration transmission)! The old Steinbergers were great guitars, and sustained really well for the reasons you stated, but they didn't have the same tonal characteristics as wood, in some ways they were better, and in some ways not so much. They have since switched to wood bodies and composite necks, because a composite neck eliminates warpage from environmental factors, such as humidity/moisture. The neck is usually the component that requires the most adjusting from those sorts of factors.

Funny this comes up, just last night I was at a Def Leppard Concert (no comments please....yes I am a die hard heavy metal fan) and Phil Collen (guitar player) busts out a clear Plexiglas Guitar during the encore....go figure.

Tom's gonna kill us for starting a topic deviating from RodBuilding....especially one with a Def Leppard refernece.

Emory, do you play guitar?


Andy Dear
Lamar Fishing Products

The thing that makes wood highly desireable for musical instruments is the same thing that makes it less desireable for use on rods. It's heavy and dense (comparitively so) so it gives musical instruments a rich, full tone. But it also tends to slow down or deaden vibrations. This is why it helps create that lower, richer, tone. Conversely, the much higher modulus of something like a plastic, composite or graphite is much better at passing vibrations. This is not so good on a musical intrument where it creates a higher, tinny, tone. But on a fishing rod, it passes vibrations much more efficiently.

Adding a wood seat insert to your rod is not gong to make a hugh difference either way, however. It will make some difference certainly, but not a huge difference.

............

Andy don't get the rookie(me) in trouble. Just saw a sweet piece of wood I thought wood look great on a rod. Better yet I can make a fly rod and force myself to learn how to fly fish
I do have a new light on you. Def Leppard hugh. LOL