Been burned twice by this....first time was about 3 years ago when LS Supreme was the best thing since sliced bread, so I bought a QT. of it and of course it didn't set up. I got a batch containing two part A's (or B's) I forget, I threw the stuff out in the snow, I was so @#$%&.

Around the same time Madeira is all the rage with the thread artists that are impressing the daylights out of me, using it exclusively. I really wanted to try closed wraps and use such a wide range of color, so I ordered a bunch. Of course its also posted that in order to use Madeira, CP is a must with the best being a 'goo' called 811. Talk about having to adapt and overcome being used to Gudebrod and Flex Coat CP.

Just how many posts have been made about Madeira and the fact that CP is 'needed" in order to prevent fisheyes...hundreds, thousands?

Of course I get brainwashed with this and have to question anyone that says that they can apply finish over untreated Madeira, mainly because it has never worked for me, and beause......thats the way it is. "Madeira and CP" two of a kind, what a pair!

When Jim Rippe posted that he sucessfully applied finish to madeira, my thought was "no way" " your nuts" and "must be a magician"....after all HOW MANY POSTS HAVE THERE BEEN SAYING MADEIRA MUST BE USED WITH CP....do a SEARCH!!!!!!

Sounds like it can be done, and it sounds like heat and thinning with heat may be the ultimate culprit. So my appologies go out to Jim Rippe for questioning this "magic act".

I think Tom wrote something about internet influence in a recent RodMaker. I'll have to re read it , becuase i've been burned twice from what other people have said

The massive "Madeira....MUST have CP" posts have been proven wrong

Sincerely

RT

Rapt really tite



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2006 06:53PM by Michael Joyce.

My only comment would be if you're not POSITIVE what will you do when you finish your first 90 hour weave? CP or no CP?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2006 06:56PM by Jim Upton.

I feel your pain! I really do.
Sometimes it's hard NOT to take to heart things that are said or believed by the builders that I have come to admire
and trust absolutely that they would no more steer me wrong than the man in the moon. Also, if they do or dont do
something then I would say it HAS to be the correct way. Or is it?

How many times have we read "your mileage may vary" or "please test on spare blank before continuing", "this is how
I do it and your results may differ"?

I have never tried RAYON thread because of all the warnings I've read but my Dad who does not follow ANY forum very
much bought some and has not had one problem with it so far.

Billy V. has stated more times than I can count "try for yourself" please tell us of YOUR results.! I think Billy has a point!

Take what you can from all available areas but don't rely on anyone but yourself to tell you what does or does not work
and by all means, keep typing those disclamers!!

Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..

The internet is great in some regards, but you have to remember that much of the time you have no idea who you're conversiing with, what their credentials are, whether or not they really have a great deal of experience, etc.

This is exactly why magazines and similar periodicals remain far more dependable in terms of providing sound information than the internet. Well, at least if the publisher and editors are doing their jobs. Please do read that article again. The opening quote speaks volumes.

But there is also a lot to be said for speed - those immediate answers to questions you want answered right now. Few things do that better than the internet.

And finally, it all depends on how you react to things. When I try a product and don't get good results, it never occurs to me that the product is bad. My first suspicion is that I've done something wrong. Sometimes it's the product's fault, but more often than not, it's mine.

........

Raymond.....Billy is also the hugest influence of CP and Madeira....SEARCH. lol! He and I also had tons of fun trying to find the best CP for madeira. Test it yourself? you bet, all for it 100%, but when the 'control' for Madeira and a non -cp scenerio might be a heat source...mistakes are made.

Jim, ...no brainer, CP'd to my liking and confidence based on prior testing of various CP's and madeira. I've wiped out to many 5 hours crosswraps and know better.


Jim Rippe has applied finish to madeira without fisheyes, actually did a tartan. Last week Billy succeed too, without using heat.

I basically feel like someone recently stated that the earth was flat again!!!!
I

Tom, I must have read the opening sentence, otherwise I wouldn't have even mentioned the article.Re- reading it may be prudent.

How "you" react to things is a well said statement. I personally react in a more ballistic fashion than others, maybe due to my upbringing and the intensity of the somewhat typical guy from the northeast that gets angered by a" red light" and beleives a yellow means "hurry up and go beause its going to turn red soon".
Probablly best to compromise , adapt, and overome.

This is a good one though. Mainly beause I've INSISTED that madeira needs CP before finish (I'll still stick by it) but it would appear based on facts and opinions and tests that it can be done without CP.

The earth is flat! lol.

Even Einstein believed the world was flat. There were probably just as many tests to prove it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2006 07:59PM by Steven Libby.

I would throw this into the mix as well - Maderia thread is not made for rod building nor for being coated with anything. So the manufacturer doesn't have too much interest in that sort of thing. Thus, for all anybody knows, processes get changed or upgraded and some spools have something on them that does indeed cause fish eyes while others do not. It's not an issue for them, because their market is for sewing and fabrics. So changes in manufacturing or the various processes involved that might wreak havoc on rod coatings just isn't on their radar. They're not concerned with that sort of thing. Who's to say that the Maderia thread Jim used was made by the exact same process as yours was?

On the other hand, a company like Gudebrod, Rice or National, who all make thread intended to be used on fishing rods, have to be certain that it will accept a finish coating.


...........

Mike, dude kick back and break open a cold one, LOL. I know sometimes you need to vent and rant a little, but this one came out of leftfield.
GO FISH

Tony

I have only used madeira metallic threads. I've never used CP on it. I do use heat to get rid of bubbles and help determine whether I have "too much" finish on a guide wrap.

I've had problems with some spools of thread fish-eyeing on me, but just stuck with the finish until it started to set, bringing it back over the area of concern physically, and was always able to get a nice, level finish (but didn't like doing that, of course, because of the time put into it). I guess I always said that buying a spool of madeira thread was just a crap shoot as to whether or not it would fish eye, but now, with the thoughts on adding heat, I may have to buy a straw before using madeira again...

Putter
Williston, ND

Since I pretty much always use CP anyway, I haven't had a problem with it and really never gave it much thought. For me, the reason that I use a lot of madeira is the 350+ vibrant colors. Since the reason that I bought it was for the color, CP was automatic for me as I wanted to keep the spool color.

Tom is right about forum/internet info. A lot of good info but a LOT of myths, wrong information, etc. (mis-information super highway) just gets spread and reinforced. Since a lot of novice builders come to this site, my biggest pet peeve are those that post that this method/product is wrong or you have to do something a certain way. I try to always state that what I answer is only my personal opinion, rather than a rodbuilding rule. There is far to much, IMO, credence given statements that have NO data to back it. IMO, there are very few things in rodbuilding that can't be successfully done in numerous ways and I honestly believe that most of what we do is strictly personal preference.

The bottem line, for me, is doing what works best for ME! (even though it may not work for anyone else, if it works for me, it's right!)

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

I'm a born-again CP believer for Madeira thread - and for all thread for that matter. I think CP helps prevent inadverent thread movement as well as providing color protection. After that, a coat or two of PermaGloss to protect the finish as Jim Upton has mentioned, prior to the epoxy finish. Jim's approach seems to help protect all those hours spend doing time-consuming wraps/weaves and makes a lot of sense to me.

CP also seems to give some stability for final thread adjustments finish application.

Bottom line is use what works - and do a bit of testing before putting on a rod.

Stan



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2006 10:52PM by Stan Gregory.

Whan I started to use this forum I found out several things I had been doing for years "wouldn't work". I have always taken the view of try something for yourself and see if it works or not. I have never used heat or thinned any finish. I have used all the popular finishes avaivable in the past 25 years. If you havn't been told it doesn't work you don't know any better. I can see how this could influence a new builder, and I still say try it a for yourself. What works for one person may not work for someone else, but when you find a method that works for you then stick with it even if someone else says "It wont work".

TRy it for yourself is teh best method. I have been speaking to Mike J & other NERbs for a coupel f years regarding MAdeira, we're always trying to figure out a better way. Problem is, we all do things the same for the most part, and we all have the same results, lol. If you ask a question about something, I'm going to tell you my experiances with that product/technique. IT doesn't make me right or wrong, but it is the truth as to MY experiances.

Take all info with a grain of salt. Test stuff on your own and figure it out for yourself. I'm not saying to discredit everything you hear/read and reinvent teh wheel, but spending a few hours testing stuff out will benefit YOU inteh long run, regardless of who says what.

I also grabbed some LS after coming here and seeing the raves, though I hadn't ever had a complaint about what I was using. What a mistake. Not because it's a bad product, but because I wasn't used to using it. I finally was able to get it to work, but it took many attempts. I still don't like it though. I think I'm one of the last people to actually take the plunge and get some Threadmaster for that very reason. It works very similar to what I'm used to, so I happily get good results with it. I'm all for trying something new, and enjoy experimenting, but a lot of times I see how, like sam, something I've done for years "doesn't" work. Like Mike, I try to say how things work for me, rather than "this is how it has to be done". I think the way Doc Ski treats his finish is something out of a horror movie, but you can't argue with the results. It works for him. There are a few do's and don'ts but also a lot of personal preference and experience that you can often only find out by playing.

When some one here says he uses some thing, you don't get large amounts of it. Nothing is written in stone.

Always try a new idea on scrap first, to see if you can do it, and if you like it.

Hmm...I've done three rods with LS Hi-Build and found it easy to use and had great results. Pics are in the photo section. And I even used it over Madeira with 811 CP. No problems at all.

About the internet - dittos to what Tom first said. I like it for a fast answer. I don't like it because you can't judge a person's experience or quality of work by reading his (sometimes long and elaborate) posts. That's why I just ordered $50 worth of RM back issues! :)

Chuck

Some great things about this forum & the internet.........I think the good far outweigh the bad.

Their is very little censorship here.......as long as it is rod building related and not offensive...Tom let's it on this board.

This opens up the board to so many different people who all have different backrounds. You may be an expert at EVA grips and maybe the next guy knows how to make a planing form for bamboo blanks or a jig to make a mortised reelseat etc. Brand new builders coming up with questions that force you to rethink or at least justify why a certain technique or product is used. Experienced builders seeing new techniques or new products develope and being communicated to them faster than ever before.

Pictures of wraps I have never even dreamed of..........EVA grips with inlay.....tools to help with those pesky jobs.....the "look how I screwed up" emails (very humble & have helped me a lot).

You cannot get any of this currently in a published magazine. RodMaker is great but so is this forum. It seems like the Dale Clemen's books & seminars made him a rod building legend....I think this site will reach far more people and put Tom Kirkman's name beside Dale in the Rodbuilding Hall of fame!

I do agree with several of the posts above but think that the site is far more of a resource than a source for misinformation. I would have never known Madeira thread or Sulky thread existed in the first place.

What is this Maderia and CP stuff? Is it a replacement for Flock?

Also - I took two guys fishing yesterday and we had 150 trout "fisheyes" in the icebox!

Gon Fishn