For Tom or any moderators here I pose the question of a forum based messaging feature. Many of the board users apparently don't want to unhide their E-mail addresses so often it's impossible to reach them for private conversation when such a thing is appropriate. Could this forum software have an added messaging feature installed or turned on so any such conversations could be done with all forum members but which would leave a person's private E-mail message out of the procedure?

Ken,

We’ve covered this very topic before, I guess it’s time to do it again. When I started this website I wanted there to be some way for guys to correspond off the board and private email seemed the best way. I’ll explain why in a minute.

When we installed the new forum software a year or more ago, it offered the option of either showing or hiding your email address. The original software didn’t have that option - your email showed regardless of whether you wanted it to or not.

Many guys have told me that they don’t like receiving spam which they feel happens whenever you list your private email address on a forum such as this. They are partly wrong and yet partly correct. Companies aren’t regularly mining email addresses from this site. However, anytime another board user who happens to have a Yahoo, Hotmail, etc., type free email account sends you an email, he or she is also unwittingly sending your address to Yahoo, Hotmail, etc., and they in turn sell your address to companies who send advertising spam. That’s how 99% of the spam that goes around gets its foot in the door - Yahoo and Hotmail accounts are the means by which spammers get your address.

At any rate, I have decided to allow those who do not wish their private email address to be viewed by others to leave their email address hidden. Of course, that means that folks who want to reach them outside of the actual forum won’t be able to do so. But it’s a personal choice that each person will have to make for themselves.

As far as private messaging within the forum software itself - yes this forum has that feature. I will not make it available, however. On many if not most of the various public forums across the internet, the users do not understand that such forum messaging systems are not entirely private - anyone with moderation access to the forum can eavesdrop on any messages sent via the forum messaging system. Some systems will even record all messages sent so that they can be read by the system administrators and/or moderators whenever they wish. In many cases, the main reason behind the messaging feature on many forum software packages is exactly so that any conversations held there can be read by the system administrators or moderators. Rarely do you see any forum mention that the private messaging feature isn’t really private. They should mention it, but they usually don’t. I don’t think much of that sort of thing, and that’s one reason why I won’t have such a system here. At least not without implicitly stating that any messages sent by such a system can be read by the moderators or board administrator.

I would never eavesdrop on a supposedly private conversation, but I’d also never want to be accused of either having the ability to do so, or actually doing so. So I will not turn on the messaging feature included with this software. Sorry. I just don’t want to go down that road.

You can show or hide your email address. You’ll just have to decide for yourself. If you converse by private email, I can’t listen to what you have to say. You might get some spam from time to time as a result of it, but you can at least converse with other board users in secure privacy. You’ll just have to weigh the pros and cons and decide which way you want to go.


...........

Thanks, Tom, for that explanation.
Hiding preserves privacy and Unhiding
opens the door to other possibilities,
if appropriiate. ... -Cliff Hall.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2006 10:11AM by Cliff Hall.

A year ago I was using the IM feature of a fishing website to chat with another user there.The next day we both got a pretty nasty e-mail from one of the people who owned the site about something one of us had said in the supposedly private IM messages we sent back and forth. How did he have any idea what we were saying? I think we all know. The whole point of the IM features is so that somebody else can find out what others are saying off the board. Bad business IMO. Even if this board had an IM feature I wouldn't dare use it and I trust this place a LOT more than I do most others.

If you have the same internet service you might be able to access that person's IM feature on the actual internet provider. That would be more secure and more private. But not everyone has the same internet provider so it won't work most of the time.

Listening to or reading instant messages might involved some legalities. I can't believe any site owner could do that unless they stated somewhere that that feature wasn't necessarily private and that any messages sent could be read by someone other than the person you are sending it to.

John,

IM's, chat rooms, etc. are never really private. Neither is E-mail. Courts have ruled on these matters often. On a forum, the IM software is owned by the forum (not the user) and can legally be monitored, saved, etc. There have been countless employees that have lost their jobs because they thought e-mail was private. The Supreme court ruled that since an employer owns the system, they have the right to monitor (read) employees mail (incoming/outgoing) if they want to. It's pretty much understood that anything that you say via the Internet can be seen by someone. There are forums that DO log all IM's and rmonitor them.

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2006 04:08PM by Mike Barkley.

Surprisingly, I sent Tom an email and received his answer to this very
subject earlier in the week. I hope everyone fully understands and
appreciates the honesty and just plain good sence that Tom uses in providing
us with the opportunity to use this valuable resource. I deleted the
persons name who operates the web site I was referring to.

On Jul 8, 2006, at 11:24 AM, Bill Stevens wrote:

I made the mistake of using another internet board, to send a personal email
to someone who was trying to locate a set of the "new flocked grips". I
offered to sell him a set via the on board email link and got chastised very
seriously by the board operator. Evidently he reads all email communication
and will not permit any personal emails that also advertise products for
sale. I use that board for fishing reports and weather and do not post on it
at all. Several years ago I made a post that I was starting to build rods
and he called me and told me to stop unless I purchased advertising. I just
stopped posting. He caught the first email that I sent to someone through
his site.

I do not try to sell via personal email communication through
Rodbuilding.org but I am wondering if you have the same policy. They are
many times that I get communications offering stuff that are sent from non
board sponsors. If this policy is also applicable to your board it migh help
if you would clairfy the rules for personal emails.

Response From TK

Bill,

There are two things I will not do - read emails that are supposedly private
and perhaps confidential. Two, what takes place between individuals by email
is none of my business as far as I'm concerned.

The second policy is probably stupid on my part. No telling how many
non-sponsors are using private email to glean customers from my website.
But... I want people to be able to communicate directly when that sort of
thing is appropriate.

I understand XXXX's position and those who wish to gain business off any of
these forums should buy advertising to do it - XXXX has to pay a fee to have
that site hosted and operated and those who benefit monetarily should be
willing to chip in. But I cannot believe anyone would read private emails
between board participants. This ain't supposed to be the KGB!

Tom Kirkman
RodMaker Magazine

Exactly why those who claim this site is a "closed shop" are 100% wrong. You can share nearly any information you want with anyone by private email. And... I won't be reading it - I can't.

In those instances where someone has their email hidden, well... that's their business and they need to understand that they are shutting off that particular avenue of possible information.

............

In Bill's post he mentions private emails - actually what we're talking about here are conversations between persons via the chat, instant message, private message, etc., features of many forums. No forum operator can "listen" in to an email conversations, but they can and often do listen in on any forum hosted instant or private messaging systems.

............

emails often don't go to where they're sent....for sure...

Actual email will go to whatever address you send it to. I can guarantee you that if I send an email from my computer to yours, no one that doesn't have access to either of our systems will receive it nor be able to access it.

On the other hand, "private" or instant messages on a forum are handled within the forum software and are available to be read by those with administrative access to that forum. It appears that more than a few make it a habit to read anything and everything that their users are sending via the messaging systems on those forums.

............

I have received emails that don't have my addy on them anywhere visible( even in'properties').....how's that work ?

Ken,

While this site requires you to register with your name some people would like have some sort of anonymity. By having the choice of whether to put my email in I quite frankly could be saying "I don't want to receive email traffic from other users". Many people like particpating in a forum like this when they have the free time to do it but do not want to be burdened with the responsiblity of having to reply to other users messages via email or some type of IM message.

If I have a question for a specific member I can post it...assuming it is rod building related. If not you could always ask for that person to email you by leaving your email.

This would also IMO cause vendors to recv all sorts of IM msg's.....many would not choose this forum to run their business on.

Tom,

I like the way you have this site set up.

& we know emails go where they aren't intended..by forwarding...can't trust anybody anymore...

One thing I noticed when I 1st came to the RB was NO ONE could send me an email because I had not "unlocked" my email address so that it could be viewed by other members. I had NO CLUE I needed to unlock anything and didn't even know how to do it, some of the members here helped me do the unlock.

I suggest there be a post/email or the like that all new members get telling them how to unlock their email, or something of the like so it can be done easily by the user AND the user knows they need to do it and how. If something isn't already in place?.... I believe Mike Barkley helped me in the begining. Since I've seen others telling persons to unlock their email so we/they can have private conversations.

PM's just make things easier for the users. I own/run a fishing site that has the PM feature, and my site DOES NOT ALLOW ANYONE to view ANY PM other than the two parties involved, even with my being the Admin and owner, I can't see ANY private messages...if I could, I'd do like Tom and remove the feature!

DR