Hello everyone,

I would like to share with you the effect of lab test of fuji spinning guides weight comparison, between Hardloy and Alconite guides.

Here they are:

H, 30 size - 5,2922
vs.
A, 30 size - 5,9342


For me, this is a great surprise. I always thought that Alconites are LIGHTER than Hardloys, not vice versa !

It seems theat the only case the Alconite guide is actually lighter than Hardloy is tip top - A tiptops ARE lighter than H tiptops.

I would like to add that Alconite fuji guides were delivered from respectable source and have fuji "stamp" on the foot.

I really wonder what is your comment about this. An I wonder how much fuiji SIC guides actually weight (vs. Hardloys and vs. Alconites)....








Best regards,
Pavel



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/03/2007 06:18PM by Pawel Tymendorf.

I've weighed identical models of Alconite, SiC and titanium framed SiC guides.

Alconites weigh X
SiC is 15% less than X
TiSiC is 30% less than X



............

Better to have and not need than to need and not have.

@Matt,

thank you for your kind interest in this matter. It would mean that the weight of Fuji SIC and HARDLOY guides is... much the same, with Alconites being the HEAVIEST Fuji guides.... (excluding TT, as I mentioned).

Best regards,
Pavel

You didn't mention the guide model you used. Hardaloy doesn't have a Conept frame, which is all the Alconite's have. The Alconites have the EXACT SAME FRAME as the SIC's, so the only weight difference is in the ring material, which the difference is minimal.

@Billy

good remark. I weighted BYAG (Alconites) vs. BLVLG (Hardloys) guides.

Best regards,
Pavel

Try this and see if your surprise is constant.

Compare FUJI Concept Alconite BLNAG 12

To:

Forecast, Amtak or Pac Bay casting style N series 304 Frame with TiCH coating and Hardloy Ring in a 12 ring.

Better still do a typical set weight. 12 BLNAG - 10 BLNAG - Two - 8 BLAG - 3 - 7 BLAG and Alconite Top w/ 7 ring.

The main difference is the mass of the total metal in the frame. They are all 3 stainless of the same alloy.

I agree with Billy V - If apples are not compared to apples this stuff can get quite confusing as well as horribly misleading.

Gon Fishn

Bill Stevens Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Try this and see if your surprise is constant.
>
> Compare FUJI Concept Alconite BLNAG 12
>
> To:
>
> Forecast, Amtak or Pac Bay casting style N series
> 304 Frame with TiCH coating and Hardloy Ring in a
> 12 ring.
>
> Better still do a typical set weight. 12 BLNAG -
> 10 BLNAG - Two - 8 BLAG - 3 - 7 BLAG and Alconite
> Top w/ 7 ring.
>
> The main difference is the mass of the total metal
> in the frame. They are all 3 stainless of the
> same alloy.
>

If you've already done such comparison please share the results :)


> I agree with Billy V - If apples are not compared
> to apples this stuff can get quite confusing as
> well as horribly misleading.
>
> Gon Fishn

I try to have practical approach. If I want to chose light and budget guide setting for the rod,why should I use Alconites which are heavier than Hardloys and cost more? I can use BLVLG and BFAT (alconite) as a TT for instance.

I don see much difference between BLVLG and BYAG frame...





Best regards,
Pavel



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/03/2006 09:05AM by Pawel Tymendorf.

If that's what you feel, then go with the Hardaloy's, nothing wrong with that. Who cares what anyone else thinks, it's your rod, you put what you feel is the best for your $1 on there.

@Billy

sure I can do that, but weren't Alconites advertised as "lighter" than Hardloys ???

Best regards,
Pavel

Since they do not have the same guide frames as HArdaloy's, I do not know what to tell you on that. However, if SIC's are lighter than Hardaloys, and Alconite uses teh same frame material as SIC - then logic would dictate Alconites are also lighter than Hardaloys...especially since the Alco ring is thinner than both the SIC & HArdaloy ring.

The Hardloy frames you mention are shorter and lighter than the Alconite frames involved. That is most likely where the weight difference is located.

..............

YOU HAVE TO COMPARE THE SAME GUIDE FRAMES, with respect to RING SIZE & RING HEIGHT, to make a FAIR COMPARISON of EQUIVALENT or COMPARABLE GUIDES.

DEFINITION of TERMS
DENSITY = MASS / VOLUME
DENSITY = GRAMS / MILLILITER
MASS = WEIGHT (for our earthly purposes)
MASS = GRAMS or MILLIGRAMS = (or GRAINS)

When a manufacturer casually claims that their "Style X" Guide is "ab"% lighter than Style Z ..." (often they do not even tell WHAT Style X is lighter than; they don't even specify a Style Z), you have to ask yourself, EXACTLY WHAT DO THEY MEAN?

It seems to me that they are sometimes referring to the RAW DENSITY of the CERAMIC MATERIAL BY ITSELF, separate from the ENTIRE ASSEMBLED GUIDE RING+FRAME. This can EASILY be TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT THINGS, if one Ring Guide has a much fatter ring or larger flange. Or if the steel frames are of different physical conformations.

Example: Fuji Alconite-ring Y-frame BYAG
verses the Fuji Hardloy-ring Y-frame BYLG.
The only difference between these two guides is the RING.
THE FRAMES are totally EQUIVALENT, if not identical.

I can not provide any further data on this subject. But I have watched and read several such Posts and there are other generalizations that can be made as well.

But for PRACTICAL PURPOSES, this is an interesting set of personal discoveries that has to be considered in the larger context of your design goals. WHOLE Guide WEIGHT, RING SIZE, RING HEIGHT, FLEXIBILITY, RUGGEDNESS, PRICE, etc will balance out your other simultaneous considerations.

IMO, Anything less than a 10% difference in MASS BETWEEN any two guides may be considered EQUIVALENT. The real issue is, are you using guides near the rod tip that weigh 500 mg or 300 mg grams.

The 200 milligrams of un-needed Guide Mass on several guides + TT towards the rod tip can easily reach the effect of ~ 1/16th oz. That means that on a Lite or Medium-Lite rod, you have already PRE-LOADED THE ROD BLANK WITH (and KNOCKED DOWN YOUR LOWER & UPPER LURE RATINGS BY) ~ 1/16th OZ. BEFORE YOU TIE ON THE LURE !!! ... If it is a 0.5 - 1.5 oz. rod, don't cry. If it's a 1/16th to 1/4 oz. Lite-UL, it's back to the drawing board. !!!

You get the idea. You can make as much - or as little - of this as suites you. Resonance Frequency; Damping / Rod-Tip Oscillation; Rod Efficiency, SENSITIVTY, etc, etc, ... A good electronic scale, accurate to within 10 milligrams, is well worth the investment, IMO, if you can afford it.

I mentioned RF and Eff, ...
I think I hear Emory coming now, ...-Cliff Hall

BYLAG & BYLG (if this guide exists?) are not the same material in teh frame. Sic & Alconite use a higher grade of steel than HArdaloy, which is why they are lighter and more resistant to rusting, and stronger.

This is a holiday for most and some have time to burn. Too many weekenders fishing and on the road. This could get quite interesting. Rusting is the common term used when steels that contain free iron oxidize. A sheet of carbon steel laying out in the yard will rust. The alloy of stainless steel, 304, in the austenitic stainless classification, used to make fishing rod guides have NO free iron on the surface when in the passivated form therefore can not rust. The American Roller Guide people have acknowledged that they passivate their stainless stocks and use a process to finish the guides that do not disrupt passivity. This problem is known to the people who build our stuff.

The method of failure of the 304 alloy will typically be from intergranular cracking. This is a really wierd thing in general. If you look carefully at some of the corrosion products on the guides you have you will see a slight greenish tint to the stuff. This normally indicates that some copper is present somewhere. I would suspect that some preparation in the manufacuring process where they are plating with a covering over the base material they have used a copper bearing primer for bond purposes. I am beginning to think that some of the "corrosion" products that we see on plated guides are plating related and not problems with the base metalurgy to start with.

Stainless steels are designed to provide maximum resistance to corrosion and are typically not covered with a plating. Some claims that guides are resistant to salt water corrosion in spray tests really do not provide the time to failure information that is needed. In a spray test if you are looking for 304 to "typically rust" you will be there an awful long time. Stainless steels typically fail by intergranular cracking when stressed beyond their limits. This failure is really speeded up and the alloys fail at lower stress levels when exposed to chlorides over 10 ppm. The crack propigation can normally be tied to something that also deprived the area of oxygen - a coating like TiCh could contribute to a break in passivity.

Maybe some non -retired metallurgist will pick up this ball and run with it! Methinks the industry could really do with some rethinking of what guides are made out of. Key words - cold working when die formed and manually bent for alignment, plated, wrapped and epoxy covered passivity shields, stressed to hold ring, sensitized when ground, no heat treatment or annealing, exposed to chlorides - - - .

Back to Invisiline Trimming With Hedge Clippers!

Gon Fishn

Better yet, dump any sort of metal as a guide frame material. It's obsolete for that purpose and has been for two decades or more now.

............

Billy Vivona wrote [at July 3, 2006 11:21AM]:
"BYLAG & BYLG (if this guide exists?) ... "
[Billy you made a typo here: BYLAG ==> BYAG.]

Brother VIVONA ! ... "Oh Ye of little faith!", ... You know that I KNOW that I am walking in the VIVONA ZONA here, where all the HORSE FEATHERS get FLAMED OFF any information that tries to FLY LIKE THE TRUTH, ... but SMELLS LIKE THE HORSES.

Billy, would I make the mistake of saying there is a FUJI BYLG Hardloy-Ring, Y-frame Guide if I was not as serious as a heart attack ABSOLUTELY SURE as humanly possible of my facts ? ... I know that if I am wrong, the perimeter has snipers in waiting, and that somebody from the Board would try to put the horse's head under the covers at the foot of my bed, ...

Okay, you are right, ... MAYBE Bro. Hall made a TYPOGRAPHICAL ERROR, ... Of course, he's human, everybody makes mistakes, ... It does happen, but a TYPO in a WORD, YES. ... But only RARELY do I make a mistake or typo when I cite a product Model # or Code #. I usually check those data at least 3 times before I REPLY, ... we can't have the visually impaired leading the blind now, can we, ...???

Here is the PICTURE and the Size Series for both:
BYLG: MUD-HOLE 2006 CATALOG, Page 68.
BYAG: MUD-HOLE 2006 CATALOG, Page 65.

If MUDHOLE made several gross typo errors, then I could be wrong. Dang, the Fuji ANGLER'S RESOURCE CATALOG of 2004-2005 has SEVERAL TYPOs / MIS-MATCHES between PHOTOGRAPH and GUIDE CODE. We DEFINITELY need to be wearing our Secret De-CODER Ring when consulting that one ! ... If the Manufacturer or the Distributor gets confused on the FUJI Product Codes and the Pictures that go with it, I don't feel too bad about forgetting which alphabet soup code is which Guide after being away from them for a little while.

It's like me and Pharmacy. Every time you turn around, there is another new drug that has a new name. I keep my secret drug de-coder booklet right here in my right-hand back pocket. And I use it religiously. It is WAY too easy to get confused when you are on the fly & busy. Better to READ THE BOOK and get it RIGHT.

So, now, having survived the Vivona Zona, I am on my way thru the Reyna Raina, and then I'll take a swim and cool off in the Lake of Ire, ... "Come on in, the water's fine," ...

Later Gator, ... Happy Independence Day !!! ...
-Cliff Hall, FL. (It's HOT as Hades down here today.)

I wasn't doubting you, I just haven't used or looked at Hardaloy since the Alconite's came out, and I didn't remember a BYLG. Obviously, I don't use spinning guides, since I put the non-existant guide...the BYLAG which would need a composite Alconite HArdaloy ring in order to exist, lol.

BV40 - "It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood,
A beautiful day for a neighbor,
Glad you're still mine, glad you're still mine."
-Cliff Hall, former NYC Yankee, gone South, now FL-Gator.

@Tom
@Cliff
@Billy
@Bill
everybody,

I am very glad I started such an interesting discussion :) From my observation I would agree that the guide weight is located mostly within the frame. If I got @Tom right, "LV" type of frame is lighter, and somehow shorter, than "Y" type of frame.

And I could not find "LV" frame with Alconite ring (like... (B)LVAG ? for instance ?)..... Maybe I wasn't persistant enough in my pursue for this guide, but so far I think there is no any

My question really is, is there a much difference between "LV" and "Y" type of frame, apart that one is lighter from another? I hold BYAG and BLVLG guides in my hand now, and would not say there is significant difference.

If my goal is to find lighter guide for the price, and I now that "Y" type of frame is heavier than "LV" type of frame, we are back to practical solutions.

What is better for the rod construction, use lighter, BLVLG guides, or heavier BYAG guides ;)

Best regards,
Pavel

What is better is to pick the one you like more, and go with that. You're splitting hairs where they dont' need to be split. You said yourself there isn't much of a diffrence between the 2 guides. Why not buy both sets, tape the guides on the rod and go fishing one day with the HArdaloys. NExt day do teh same with teh Alconites. THen you'd have your answer, and you'd make yourself a better builder.