Since getting more involved in the rod building community I have benefitted greatly and think that the internet and all similar ventures have really opened up the learning curve for rod building. As I working on a rod last night I started to wonder if there might be additional opportunities for rod building in the form of some sort of a professional organization for teaching or sharing ideas. Business ideas would be one good thing to focus on. Or some sort of pricing guidelines or professional affiliation.

I plan to give this more thought but thought I would throw it out there to the board members for some general feedback.

Short of regional gatherings, RC, and Forums,
and RMM, this seems to be as close as it gets.
Tom Kirkman's triad of forum, magazine & symposium
certainly sets a unified standard that is unprecedented
... IMO, ... Thanks, Tom. ... Happy Father's Day to all, ...
... Thank God for wives who make fatherhood possible.
-Cliff Hall+++, FL-USA.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 06/18/2006 10:20AM by Cliff Hall.

Ken,

RodMaker Magazine is the single best resource in which all aspects of the hobby and business of custom rod building are examined. Tom Kirkman, more than any individual I know, has labored tirelessly ro expand the horizon of this craft . I hope you are a subscriber to thie fine publication and invet in as many back issues as possible. They are bursting with detailed articles adressing all the concerns you reaise and many others.

This is not to say a professional organization might not also be of benefit. The formation of a network of classes on rod building is another possibiltity for exdpanding the craft.

RodMaker remains the best place for all topics to be examined. As Tom has mentioned manay time before, the information we see on this and other Forums is rarely original or thorough. RodMaker Magazine is where these topics are examined in detail and with great expertise. As such it will remain the prime conduit for all new advances iin the craft.

I remain dubfounded to learn how few members of this Forum actually subscribe to Rodmaker. I encourage all in that category to reaise their exposure to the best of all information available on our craft. Not only will you receive the unadulterated information but you will be contributing to the future of all the other resources Tom has instituted for our benefit.

What will it offer that isn't already being offered??? How much will you charge and how will you justify it?

Ken,

Hardly more than a few weeks go by that someone doesn’t approach me about starting such an organization. This has been going on for years. I don’t want to rain on anybody’s parade, but the same thing keeps popping into my head each and every time somebody asks about such a thing - exactly what would such an organization offer that isn’t already being offered and presently at little to no cost to the users?

Message boards and forums? The internet is covered with them and with few exceptions they are free to the users. How would such an organization provide anything that would be better or truly different and at no cost? When you compare any possible organization’s membership to the general rod building community at large, it would never represent more than a very paltry number and such does not bode well for any sort of terribly active rod building forum or manufacturer/dealer participation. I think rod building forums and message boards are already in good supply and there are already some very good ones. Am I missing something?

I had thought about a website that offered nothing but product reviews. Actually, this wasn’t my idea but something that another hopeful like yourself had suggested to me. The problem again creeps in that you would have a hard time knowing if the review was honest, was done by a competent person, was intended to harm another dealer or manufacturer, was simply a smoke blower looking for a few more sales, etc. I think this has merit but I certainly don’t know how to go about it.

A magazine? I can tell you from first hand experience that quality magazines with valid information are very expensive to produce. While internet message forums do not compare in any way with the sort of good information you will find in most any decent specialty magazine, consumer perception is just the opposite. Talk to any magazine publisher these days and they’ll tell you that their circulation has taken a hit in the past few years. Nearly all blame this on the perception that you can get the same information (you can’t) right off the internet and at no charge. Talk to the major newspaper publishers as well as the network news corporations and they’ll tell you exactly the same thing. So a publication done solely by and for an organization could only be well or practically done if the membership in such an organization was fairly large. And I’m not talking about hundreds of members - I’m talking about thousands. Frankly, I can’t see such an organization attracting that sort of membership with all the other free resources available these days.

Seminars and that sort of thing? It’s been done. Maybe it could have been done better, or in a different way. What we know is that organized rod building events, free or otherwise, don’t draw many attendees. Sure, those who attend usually have a great time and feel they are more than worth the effort to attend, but when sponsored by an organization you run into considerable costs and thus, high attendance fees. Manufacturers and dealers cannot afford to travel and display at small events - it just costs them far too much to be able to recoup their expenses at a small gathering. A large national event? Sure, but how do you go up against something like the National Rod Builders Show which attracts the bulk of the active rod building community and at very little cost in the way of an admission fee? If I were going to start an organization I guess I could make this event a “members only” thing, but I can promise you that if I did, we’d see the attendance numbers plummet by 80% to 90%. And at that point, the show could not continue at the same size, scope or quality that it is now. I’ve run it through my mind a hundred times and I can’t see any better way to do this show than what we’re doing now - and the huge attendance and excitement over it these past few years pretty move prove this out beyond any shadow of a doubt.

I’ve thought about some sort of organization that simply offered buying discounts but considering the low margins most dealers are operating on now, most can’t go any lower. And, there is the problem of keeping participating dealers up to date with who is a member and who isn’t (although I have figured out a way to easily do that). Still, I will bet you that you can go to just about any dealer, both as a member of such an organization and as a non-member, and in the long run you’ll end up being able to get the exact same price on your items.

Now when it comes to business oriented topics and constructive sales and operating assistance, you may have something. Still, much of this type thing is already available in the magazine, the various websites and from general business sources. I just think you’d have a hard time attracting enough folks, at some fee, to get such information. Some for sure, but not enough to really have a viable organization.

Another thing I hear a lot is the idea of “camaraderie.” Considering the demographics of rod building, the various forums and the big show and so many local gatherings, exactly how would being a member of something increase any sort of camaraderie? You can have that right now without having to pay anything to obtain it. Many have already formed lasting rod building friendships with fellow builders they meet on this forum, at a show or event, or through the directory here. What I am missing on this “camaraderie” thing? If you can’t make some rod building friends, even local ones, you’re not trying very hard.

I have thought about some sort of rod building business e-zine or quarterly newsletter. Maybe there's a niche for you there, but again, how many people will pay to receive it? E-zines don't do well. Talk to some of those who publish them. (If you wanted to do this at no charge, you'd probably get a couple hundred guys to subscribe to it - I don't know your goals so I shouldn't assume you want to charge for it.)

I’m not trying to shoot down your idea. I hear it every few weeks and continue to think about just what such an organization could possibly offer that isn’t already being offered. But my feeble mind can’t come up with much, if anything. If there is a niche that isn’t being filled, that could be filled, I’m all ears. Still, if it requires a membership and any sort of fee, I’m afraid you’ll have a tough row to hoe. I’ve had guys suggest I charge a fee for using this site - after all, it has more features and resources than any other rod building website. But I can guarantee you that the instant I institute any sort of user fee here, the activity at this place will fall off to nothing. People, by and large, just will not pay for this type of thing. Sure, a hundred guys might, but that won’t foot the bill and won’t create a viable resource. And... sponsors can’t recoup their sponsor fees on a hundred guys’ business. The only reason I can still charge for RodMaker and the big rod building show is because there is absolutely nothing else like them anywhere. When somebody somewhere figures out how to do similar things at no charge, then the magazine and the show will go away.

I’ll watch this topic and keep an open mind. Perhaps I’ve missed something. If I have and if anyone wanted any input or help from me I’d be more than willing to offer it. But I’ve done a lot of thinking on this and just can’t see an opening for any sort of huge success in this area. Show me where I’m wrong - I’m open for your ideas.

...........

I should point out that such an organization or activity doesn't need me to be part of it. I only responded as I did because I've been approached by a lot of people about either helping them with such a thing or doing it on my own and frankly, I just don't see the demand or any niche that isn't already being filled in some capacity. Anyone that wants to do this really needs to study the big picture before embarking on such a thing.

Come up with something good, different or better and I'll be your first member.

............



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/18/2006 10:29AM by Tom Kirkman.

Between forums, this site, Rodmaker magazines, the big Builders Expo each year and impronptu regional get togethers and informal regional rodbuilding "clubs" among rodbuilders, there is more out there than any formal organization can offer. It's been my experience that most "professional" organization (NOT just rodbuilding) start out with creditable goals, but soon become more concerned with protecting their income base, and concentrate less on sharing info than they do on advancing their own agenda. and "competing" with any builders or oranizations that may differ with their goals/opinions. What happens is you eventually get organization competing for paying members
Pricing guidlines, etc cannot really be standardized as a builder has to let things like location, dmand, quality, experience, etc. to determine, NOT some organization to tell them what to charge. Rodmaker magazine recently ran a great three part series on pricing that shows just that diversity. I don't know what benefit "professional affiliation" would provide. Thre is a very small portion of anglers have any interest in custom rods and are perfectly happy with what is available in commercial rods. It has been estimated that probably 2 or 3% of the anglers would even be potential customers and they could probably care less what organization a builder belongs to. There concern is the reputation, quality and service of the builder, NOT that he paid some organization to become "certified" I think that what tends to happen is "Turf Wars", so to speak, with organizations competing for members (and their money) to the point where the sharing of info is restricted to their paid membership instead of expanded and shared for the good of the craft. Just like gov't bureaucracy, their function soon turns to guarenteeing their profitable existance and stifling competition.

I sometimes find it hard to understand that there are probably tens of thousands successful builders out there who have no interest in the internet nor subscribe to Rodmaker. They have there niche and are happy with it. The thing about this craft (or whatever you may want tio call it) is that most (?) builders are craftsmen and do what they do out of love for it and the satisfaction that they get from it. I have no figures, but would gusee that very few of them actually do it full time or make a living at it. I THINK that most would like to make enough to support there addiction and maybe pay for a few fishing trips (that would make an interesting survey) and would have little or no interest in joining any formal organization

More knowledge/information and "hands on" can be had during one weekend at the "International Rodbuilding Expo" as well as regional get togethers such as the Northwest event at the Lamiglass plant in Washington.

Oops!!! I guess that I was typing too slow! I see better responses than mine were posted while my two typing fingers were smoking!!!!!

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/18/2006 11:18AM by Mike Barkley.

Keep in mind that even though there are hundreds of thousands of people who will build a rod this year, only a small percentage will ever get involved to the point where they would subscribe to a magazine, attend an event or even use a free rod building website.

By the time you whittle down the numbers to the folks who are that involved, you end up with perhaps a few thousand. And you can never expect to get more than a small percentage of any active group to join, buy, participate, etc. When I look at the numbers, as best they exist, and see that RodMaker has about 4% of the total market for rod builders out there, I feel really lucky to have done that well. Most publications are happy with just 2%.

Again, if you can come up with a better or different sort of idea - and that's entirely possible, keep us informed. I guess I just don't know what you're looking for.


...........

Hmmm. Interesting points. Guess I didn't really stop to think that there might not be enough builders with that kind of interest to really be able to fuel such a thing.

I guess I was thinking about something like the North American Fishing Club but looking it over again this AM I see that it's reallly not much more than a magazine subscription with a few lures tossed in to sweeten the pot.

Ken, NAFC may call itself a club but it is anything but! It's a commercial magazine which also happens to own the Master Walleye Circuit tournament series. Make no mistake about that. It is a commercial enterprise (I'm not saying that it's not a good one) but it's not a club. "Members" have no say in it's operations and it's NOT a non-profit organization as any actual club would be.

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

BassMasters was the same way. When I joined way, way back in the early 1970's, a membership got you a got a subscription to the magazine, a spinnerbait and a jacket patch. Now this was a big deal to a boy of 13 or 14 who loved fishing, but I can't imagine it being the impetus for many others to join. Then again, they have hundreds of thousands of "members" so maybe I'm the one who's off here.

............

The NAFC doesn't even include a subscription to their magazine, just one free issue! Here are the benefits as they list them---

Your FREE Trial Membership provides you full access to the following Club Benefits:


A FREE Issue of North American Fisherman magazine

A FREE Wing-It Bobber Set

Exclusive E-Newsletter

Enter daily to win FREE fishing gear

Register to test and keep FREE fishing equipment

Receive a FREE Fishing Resources Directory

Swap tips and techniques with other members online

Receive full access to the Club web site

Preview great books, videos and more

Plus, so much more!

I have no idea what the so much more is. I was a member for a year and it was okay but not anything enough to get me back again. I can buy the magazine on the news rack if I want to read one. The FREE fishing equipment was a crankbait and a buzzbait. So my membership fee sort of paid for those.

Same for me, show me what you're going to offer for my money and I'll let you know.

I would have no interest in starting or running any such thing but I do have some ideas. These are just possible ideas for somebody to consider.

If the organizers worked with existing companies to acquire certain package benefits then maybe they'd have something. Let's say that they got Tom to sell them tickets to the big show at a discount, magazine subscription at a discount and then maybe some token items from a few dealers and suppliers. Maybe do a monthly e-mail on rod buildng tips. Just a host of items and benefits like that that each new member would get. If you could offer $100 worth of actual benefits for $35 then you might get people to join.

But any more than that I don't think you could afford. To do a website and forum like this one or even a magazine of your own would probably cost too much for the numbers involved. That's why I would suggest trying to acquire existing publications and items for your members but at a better price than they could get them individually.

Rob, You have to ask yourself why a vendor would contribute to something like that. Most work on a bare minimum margin as it is and it would probably not do anything for their bottom line. Any builder that visits the forums, subscribes to RM, etc is already aware of them and is probably already paying to sponsor or advertise. Why would Tom offer discount ticketd to something that is already ridiculously cheap. I doubt that a couple buck discount would make anyone travel to N Carolina. If they're not attending now, that isn't going to help change their mind.. For any vendor to provide even a token item to every new member (hundreds, possibly thousands), that could be the difference in making a profit. Where is the plus side for them?

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Good points. Less than 30 days ago I spoke with a vendor about offering some sort of RodMaker "super subscription" where you'd get the magazine, a shop apron, maybe a tip top gauge, a few discount coupons from participating vendors, etc. The total value would have been much more than the asking price. My final decision is that while it was a neat concept, the numbers that took advantage of it probably wouldn't justify the effort involved. I may have been wrong, but either way, I won't likely pursue it. Doesn't mean somebody else shouldn't, but I can't see the numbers being very high.

...................

I think that the original Dale Clemens Rodcrafters club did pretty well. But that was before the age of things like the internet or Rodmaker. I don't know if it could get off the ground today. Time and technology change things. I cannot see one thing that a paying member to any club gets that anyone else isn't already getting and without having to pay for it. Rodmaker is by subscription. You can go to the National rod building show without having to belong to or join anything. Plenty of good friends to be made outside of a club's political climate. I cannot see that you would be doing anything but fattening somebody's pocketbook. Most of the rod building shows and seminars these days are not associated with any clubs and are done by people like Tom or the various manufacturers like Lamiglas or Batson. Can anyone in such a club tell me what they are getting that I am not?? I don't think so.

In many cases I think people who are not members of a club actually get a lot more and end up meeting a lot more people and sharing a lot more ideas because their dealing with a much larger circle of information and rod builders.

If anyone where to pursue this sort of thing, what you'd want to do would be to look at other organizations and clubs in similar crafts such as knife making, wood turning, etc. The American Association of Wood Turners seems to be doing pretty well. I assume the Custom Knife Maker's Guild is pretty strong. You could talk to them and see what works on their end. I'd think you'd be better off emulating a formula that is already proven to work, adding or subtracting certain things based on what it is that you want to do.

I feel pretty sure there are more wood turners than rod builders. Knife makers I wouldn't know. But overall these would be similar crafts with similar people involved.

...........

I think you nailed it, Sam!!

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

I can see good value in a local rod building club. Just something informal where guys can get together and share ideas and help each other out with problems they might be having.

Anything on a national level would be a dinosaur in my opinion and you'd be up against the wall trying to get many people to pay you for anything unless you offered something really good hat they couldn't get anywhere else.

Many of the fishing "organizations" actually survive on the business of selling insurance of one kind or another, and that's where their real profit is. BASS is very much one of these. So is the NAFC. But these are fishing organizations - not crafters organizations. We may be professional builders but what we're sort of talking about is something akin to a plumber's license. And there's the rub - in such an organization, the license gives you the right to do the work within various licensing regulations by appropriate regulatory authorities. C'mon, folks, that's not what we're about here.

This is a craft business, similar to custom photography or making pottery, jewelry, art-level painting, etc. It is largely based on perceived value, over and above the cost of simply buying a commercially-available rod. There has to be something "special" or "better" about the rods we make, else no one would buy them. Pride of ownership comes to mind, when the customer can brag about the fish he caught on his "custom" rod. Sounds elitist, snobby, etc.? Well, it's part of what sells our rods. Ultimately, folks buy what we make because they make a personal connection with each of us. They realize that each rod, like each of a painter's original paintings, is unique and that's a large measure of the value they pay for. If we make a matched set of rods, the customer now has a unique set of matched rods. Believe me, he will show them off proudly to his buddies. To carry the analogy a bit further, our rods can't be sold as "prints" (i.e., 1 of 1,000) - but they are collectibles, especially within the bamboo flyrod specialty.

At the risk of this being edited out, I'll mention the "unmentionable" Guild, who has a "Certificate of Membership" and a "certification test" (if you want to take it) as well as a membership structure, as one path that has been tried. The difference is that they cater primarily to their members' which is probably only fair, while here we all are on a "free" BBS and the cost of the magazine is minimal, indeed, especially compared to the value of the information in each issue.

No, I haven't drifted off the point of this thread. The point is that I don't think a professional organization would provide more benefit than we already have, unless our customers made the distinction and were willing to pay more for the cachet that it would attach to an individual craftsman. That means the organization would have to build the perception amongst the customers, of the extra value of their imprimature on a maker's business card. That costs money and takes time. Ultimately, it'd be our money as members. Do you have enough residual profit in your rods to carry the cost during the formative years?

At the risk of being redundant, would using the logo of a pro organization on your business card have an effect on your orders? Not unless your customers actually recognized the value. And unless that was so, then how would you justify the extra cost of a professional membership? Oh, sure, you could write it off as a business expense, but it's still money out of your pocket.

- just some thoughts. Hope they help.

Uncle Russ