I am building a 8 foot surf rod for spinning reel. I am needing advice on guide spacing and the amount of guides to use. My reel seat is starts at 14" from bottom of rod. My first guide that I am using is a size 50 perfection wire guide that is placed right now at 43 1/5" from tip top and 24" from real seat. The other guides that I have is a 40,30,25,20,16,12 and 10. Do I need all the guides or can I skip some of them. 8 pluse tip top on an 8 ft rod seems overkill. Thanks for advice.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/08/2006 06:26PM by Brad Young.

I agree that seems like a lot; and why such big guides? I would think that the appropriate reels for an 8' rod would not need over a 40 guide at most. I would also seriously consider ceramic guides, but others here build a lot more surf rods than I do.

I just went out and test casted the set up that I have now and it seem to cast just fine. But looking at it, it still seems like to many guides.

Brad Young - IMO, here's a Guide Layout using
your PERFECTION brand of Wire Guides

If your BUTT GUIDE is at 43 inches from the TIP-TOP:
Size: 50MM, ... 40, ... 30, ... 20, ... 16, ... 12mm, ...TIP-TOP (12mm)
Place: . 43", ... 32", ... 23", ... 16", ... 10", ... 5", ... ZERO = TIP-TOP

My math on your handle configuration does not add up:
For a 96" Rod Length
Butt to Reel Seat: 14"
Reel Seat: 5"
Reel Seat to Butt Guide: 24"
BUTT-CAP to BUTT-GUIDE = 43" = 14" + 5" + 24"
Therefore, BUTT-GUIDE to TIP-TOP = 96" - (43") = 53"
BUTT GUIDE to TIP-TOP = 53"

If you meant to say your BUTT GUIDE is 53 inches from the TIP-TOP:
Size: 50MM, ... 40, ... 30, ... 20, ... 16, ... 12mm, ...TIP-TOP (12mm)
Place: . 53", ... 40", ... 29", ... 20", ... 12", ... 6", ... ZERO = TIP-TOP

This is meant to express two sets of Guide Sizes & Placement for your consideration, given that you are committed to using the Perfection brand of Wire Ring Surf Guides. These suggestions are a FIRST APPROXIMATION for layout and tape-up. Your Preliminary Static Bending Test, then Casting Test, then your own FINAL Static Loading Test will tell you how to shift things around from these original positions. ...

This is a bit of a Cone-Flight Layout, but it will perform well. I would not try to squeeze down the Ring Diameter too soon, because these Wire Surf Guides have the Ring so close to the Rod Blank. Too much line slap, IMO, if you go 40MM, 25, 16, 12, 10mm, which is what others may recommend. ... As always, YOU get to decide, Brad. ... That's just my 50 cents on the subject.

Good Luck, Brad Young. Hasta manana,
-Cliff Hall+++, FL-USA*****



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/08/2006 09:03PM by Cliff Hall.

Brad,
your system looks like it would work. Cliff is right. This set up is the old "Cone of Flight" guide spacing. I used to build all my spinning rods with this theory of guide spacing. I built an 11.5 foot spinning surf rod with only six guides. The butt guide was a Mildrum SRA 75 (Ring size roughly 3 inches). Two years ago I built my first spinning rod using the New Concept guide spacing. This method is discussed very well in Tom Kirkman's book. This new rod I built with the New Concept Guide Spacing so outperformed my other rods with the "Cone of Flight" spacing that I have decided not to use the Cone of Flight. metod anymore. This summer I am rebuilding that 11.5 foot surf rod using the Alconites from Fuji using rhe New Concept guide spacing method. tentatively I decided the butt guide will be a 30.

I recommend that you try this new method to see if you don't get better performance. You could try the Alconites or some of the guides from such manufacturers as American Tackle (Titans), Batson, or Pac Bay. They all have some high V guides. The size of the ring is less important than the distance from the blank.

By the way that old surf rod with only six guides cast like a cannon. There is a story behind why I used only six guides, but I won't bore you with it here.

Good luck.

Mike Blomme

I'm going to disagree on two counts:

1) For a surf rod, especially a short one (hereabouts 9' is short, 10-11' is average), I start with no less than a 40mm stripper, and yes, the "Cone of Flight" layout is where we're going. I usually end up with an 8mm tip on a shorter rod. But the reason for the larger stripper is that we like it to be related to the diameter of the reel's spool, with two things in mind: (a) the larger guide minimizes the effect of the coil of line coming off the larger spool and (b) the angle from the bottom of the spool to the top of the stripper ((the highest point on the ID of the ring above the rod) is also minimized. You can control this angle two ways - move the stripper further from the face of the spool or use a bigger stripper. Our 11' rods generally start with a 50mm stripper.

2) Having more guides "looks" heavier and in some cases, like overkill. But in fact if they are properly sized and spaced in the "Cone" the line doesn't touch them - it hits the stripper and the tip guide. There have been several high-speed recordings of this. But the purpose of more guides is to maximize the "spring" effect of the rod when you're fighting a larger fish. The extra guides act as a cushion and reduce strain on any one part of the rod. The fish has to work harder but you don't. This approach also has a "cushioning" effect when the fish dives or turns sideways. The rod really does "follow" the fish, and if you lay it parallel to the water it helps to lift him or turn him (or her). When you cast the minimum weight you're building for, the cast is above all (a) smooth and (b) quiet. No friction means more distance.

We have around eleven guides on an 11' rod, and as few as 8 or as many as 10 on a 7' rod, but there are no "hard" rules or formulas. We let the rod "tell" us where to place the guides and how many to use by adhering to two "rules" - no flat sports, and create with the line an arc or parabola complimentary to the rod's arc, so that the two meet at or just a bit beytond the tip (assuming the tip keeps the line above the tip of the rod).

I know this flies in the face of the information above, and it's not meant to be contradictory or negative to that in any way. It's sort of like paying golf by "feel" as opposed to mechanics. You need to have the mechanics as a foundation and then you can develop the "feel".

- these are just suggestions, not rules. We will build whatever the customer wants and/or wants to pay for and do the best we can to make it work for him. But we also try to build based on designs we've built for ourselves.

Uncle Russ

A permit to fish certain National Seashore Parks requires a rod of at least 8 feet in length. This is the rule for the Breezy Point National Beachfront in NYC. A rod of this short length is seldom used in this area or any other I frequent from NYC to Cape Cod. They are usually used for casting lines in the 8-15# range with 2000 to 2500 sized reels; and most often for plugs and not bait. Theses are lightweight surf rods. I believe rods in this class will benefit greatly from the Fuji New Concept System. The dymamcs of these rods are more similar to larger freshwater rods than true surf heavers. These reels have small spools and do not require large guides to capture the line.

The New Concept specifically traps the line at the butt guide to reduce as much overstray as possible furtherr along the rod. The benefits on sacting performance have been well documented. In addition to the data my own experience confirms these results.

As for the the point made by Russ Pollack all I would add is that large guides do not belong on small rods. In addition to their added weight they produce far more wind resistance (drag) during the cast. Frankly, I prefer the Concept System of surf spinnong rods of all weights and lengths. I may not gain any or much distance in casting, but I don't lose any either. Casting accuracy is definitely improved as is the comfort in handling a lighter rod, usually over many hours.

As for having more guides to "cushion" the pressure of a hard fighting fish that is also accomplished with the Concept system. one extra guide is most often needed to layout a proper concept system. The smaller rings and lighter weight guides improve damping and resonant frequency.

The very first rod I built was an 11' Lamiglas Fiberglas surf rod set up with large ring Perfection Guides in the cone of flight layout. I can still recall the sound of air disturbance and the noticable resistance caused by those giant rings.

I am as convinced of the benefits of the Concept System for spinning rods of all types as I am about the Bumper System for conventional rods. These inventions are great for rod performance and I will only go forward from them and never backwards to antiquated technology.