In the process of setting up a spinning rod using the New Concept set up method described in the library I found that we really don't have that many choices of guides. The rod I'm building called for certain size guides and heigths. I researched the specs on guides from Fuji, Forecast and Pacbay all of which are great products. But what my rod called for was Fuji, I guess, normal heigth guides. I couldn't use the high frame concept guides and then I couldn't use the guides from Pacbay or Forecast because they were either too high or too low. So to make this rod cast the best I am forced to use Fuji SiC TLVSG spinning guides. Great guides but do I need guides that expensive? And since I'm using #6 fly guides from the intersect point to the top that also limited me in what choices I had. I wanted to use the Forecast titanium frame/gold ring guides. Could get a whole matching set but the spinning guides were not the heigth I needed. Could use Hardloy guides but the fly guides are too high and I did want to use a little better guide than that. Could use fuji Aluminum Oxide spinning guides but there's no fly guides to match. Could use Alconites but they only come in the concept heigth frames. Could use PacBay, but again same problems. The only matching set of guides that I can use is the Fuji SiC TLVSG because they are the right heigth and they have the fly guides to match. So really, the chioces of guides for custom rod builders is very limited. For the builders who do just a general guide set up there are numerous choices. But for the builder who strives to get the maximum performance from a rod, to make him/herself or customer happy, the choices are very limited.

Thanks for reading my rant.....I feel better now. Well, not really....I still can't get what I need. LOL

Steve

Did you look at the American Tackle Titanium Nitride ring guides or their Halide ring guides?

I did not consider them because I couldn't find any specs on them as far as guide heigth. If you know where I can find that I'd gladly see if they would work.

Thanks,
Steve

The Amtak Titans are tall enough. The new Forecast V3 (?) guides are also very high and really nice. I have used just about all of the guides with the New Concept method and if necessary just adjust the spacing to get the best setup. If you want to use a particular guide, I would say "Go for it". I think that static testing and casting will sho that you can get good performance on just about any guide models.

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Well, you can call American Tackle at 800 516-1750 or perhaps your distributor and ask them.

Mike,
I don't know what heigths the AmTak guides are but from the testing I did I need the lower frame guides instead of the high frames. When I tried to use a concept guide it would put the guide too close to the reel and the would line make a sharp turn to the next guide. Then if I tried to go from a 25 down to a 20 concept guide it would be about the right distance form the reel but again it would make that sharp turn to the next guide. So far the fuji tlvsg seems to work the best. I'm gonna keep at it though until I can't get any better with it.

Thanks,
Steve

Steve, I use forecast guides and set them up in the concept fashion, and have not had any problem, especially if you are building a spinning rod, the guides really won't have any need to be any specific height, because the line will be touching the outside rim of the ring when fishing and fighting fish. The main concern is getting the guides set correctly to avoid any extreme angles, and to follow the bend of the blank. I just start with an estimate of where each will go, static test the guides for angles, and then adjust the butt guide for distance and clearance. In fact, I remember this subject being discussed on this site and at gatherings where many builders will mix and match guides to get the performance they need, provided that the colors are the same. In fact I have seen spinning rods setup with double foot guides and they perform very well. I myself when building traditional casting rods, use double foot guides for the first three butt guides working up to using single foot fly guides to the tip and have not experienced any problems. In my opinion, the forecast guides with the titanium frames and variable colors are my first choice. I also use many fuji alconite guide setups also. I would think the exception to this would be if you were building spinning rods for large fish on very stiff blanks and need the extra height because the action of the blank could be either very stiff or more pronounced using fiberglass blanks which would tend to be a slower action and have flex in more length of the rod. This is just my opinion as I have only built freshwater rods, and if I am incorrect in this assessment, I would appreciate someone to correct me so that you are getting accurate information.

I agree with Galen. I think that often we get hung up on something and over analyze it. I would think that the key thing is line path/angles. I think that you should be able to get that with just about any models of guides available. Let the guides tell you where they need to go. If the Alconite is to close, move it farther away, that's all. There is no set distance of where to put them. I have ended up with butt guide anywhere from 18 to 25 inches The theory behind the system is to let the guides tell you where to put them

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

YOu're thinking too much. It really doesn't make all that much of a difference if the line path is off by 1mm. Nobody is goign to come by with a ruler and meaure the hieght while you are fishing. Just go with the set of guides you prefer to use, and MAKE it work.

I bet if I brought it to the Show you would be the first one to whip a tape measure! LOL

You're probably right about the thinking too much. My little pea brain is fried!

Steve,
I am often also annoyed by the height of guides but if you will use single footed guides you can easily bend the frames a little to vary the height so that they line up the way that you want them to line up.
Something that you might want to consider is to tape the guides on and then test cast the rod and watch the standing wave in the line when you cast. The standing wave is caused by the friction between the line and the guide. What you are actually seeing in the standing wave is part of the energy in the line being reflected back toward the reel so you want to position the guides to minimum the standing wave in the line when casting. The smaller the standing wave the better and the farther the rod will cast.

Billy,
Maybe you are not thinking enough. If you want to get the best possible performance from the rod, which it sounds like Steve is trying to do, it definitely does make a difference how the guides line up.

Emory, if the entire Rodbuilding community can figure out good enough guide placement with the current crop of guides, then so can Steve. he doesn't NEED TSVSG's to get what he's looking for, he just has to do some tinkering around and he'll be able to figure out something which nobody in the entire universe will notice, not even himself.

Emory,
I see what you're saying and agree. And yes I am trying to get the maximum performance from this rod. This one is for myself but I would want a customer to have that same performance also.

I also had an idea about the "laying the rod on a table edge thing". I'm thinking of making a level straight line on one wall of my shop and screw two pegs into the wall on that line. Then take the spool off and set the shaft of the reel on the two pegs and the blank should be sitting perfect for the intersect point. And making something to keep the rod from falling off goes without saying. That way you can't mis-aligne the shaft with the straight edge by eyeballing it. Just an idea.

Steve,
American Tackle do list height for single foot Titans guides at their site..

Art,
I just went back and looked and you were right. when I looked on their site I didn't scroll down passed the guides to see the chart of guide heights. Sorry for being a dunce. Thanks Art!

Steve





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2006 02:19PM by Steve Parks.

Steve,
Your wall fixture sounds like a good idea to me but I think that you still want to test cast the rod. The biggest problem with the standing wave and loss of energy that results is with the first guide. When you test cast you can just look at the standing wave and then move the first guide around to minimize the size of the wave. Then position the other guides accordingly and test cast again to make sure you that you do not have a large standing wave between any of the other guides.

STEVE, THE TABLE, AND OR THE WALL THING IS A GOOD IDEA, BUT YOU ALSO HAVE TO TAKE IN TO CONSIDERATION THE STRAIGHTNESS OF THE ROD BLANK, AND ALSO NOT ALL SPINNING REELS HAVE THE SAME ANGLE OF ALIGNMENT, SO THAT ALSO PUTS ANOTHER TWIST IN THE ALIGNMENT FACTOR. THE ALIGNMENT WILL BE ACCURATE IF THE SAME SIZE REEL IS USED WITH THE EXACT SAME SIZE SPOOL. DIAMETER. STATIC ALIGNMENT AND TEST CASTING IS THE BEST WAY TO GET THE MOST PERFORMANCE OUT OF THE ROD. REALISTICALLY THE ONLY GUIDE THAT REALLY MAKES A DIFFERENCE IN THE CASTING IS THE VERY BOTTOM BUTT GUIDE. IF THE OTHERS ARE ALIGNED WITH THE STATIC PLACEMENT. THIS IS BASICALLY THE ONLY GUIDE YOU NEED TO MOVE FARTHER OR CLOSER TO GAIN DISTANCE AND ELIMINATE LINE SLAP. JUST MY TAKE ON THINGS. I THINK THAT AS WE WORK MORE AND MORE WITH GUIDE ALIGNMENT, A PERSON REALIZES THAT ONLY IN A PERFECT WORLD, THINGS WOULD ALWAYS WORK THE SAME.

I'm using a Shimano Sahara 4000FB and this will be the reel that goes on it when it's time to snatch some lips!

Steve,

You should build a casting chamber....with no moving air. Then construct a rod casting arm for consistancy. Mount cameras everywhere. After months of testing and analysis and millions spent you could decide which guides would work best or simply develope your own. Then you will know you are getting "the best possible performance" out of your rod.

Then get with Kistler and find out how to get the Helium in to the blank to make it lighter.

Sorry couldn't resist....

I'm in the Billy V camp on this one.

Emory,

I conceed you may be smarter than most of us...but sometimes I don't think we see the forest through all the trees. While you guys are doing research I'll be out catching fish.

.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/2006 02:12PM by Steve Parks.