I like to read so in considering my current rod building project of a 9 ft #4wt flyrod I've been using the book written by L.A. Garcia. He mentions using oversize guides on most of his flyrods. Nothing smaller than a size 2 snake guide? For those that build and fish there own rods does this make sense? Obviously using oversize snake guides will change the appearance of the rod also and this is important to me. I want the rod to have a fairly traditional look.

Any feedback you can offer would be appreciated. Thanks.


Tim Kelly

First of all, oversize would mean larger than necessary, so no, they would do nothing for you other than add weight which is actually a detriment.

Then again, for something to be oversized it must relate to something else. I really don't know what that would be.

What I would recommend is that you use the correct size. That would be the smallest size that will work well and pass all required connections.

...............

Tim,

I do like what the manufacturers call "oversize" or "large loop" tip tops for the wire style fly guides. This is simply in my opinion because they allow connections to pass easier IMO. I don't think the larger fly guides make a big difference.

L.A. Garcia, at least from the writings I've read from him, appears to be primarily a saltwater angler and his book was written sometime ago. I think things have progressed over the years as Tom has discribed above. I use 1/0 or 2/0 guides on the tip section of most 4 wt rods I've built depending on the criteria above.

I'm no expert, but the only time i see a use for oversized fly guides would be on a steelhead rod that is used in the winter where iced up guides become a problem. That is also the only time i use double foot snake guides because i find they ice up less than single foot guides. It is somewhat a trade off because there is added weight and I dont think they cast as well as ceramics in warm weather - but thats also a good excuse to build another rod for spring and fall steelies.

Mike Marrone

I started rod building from Garcia's book. I built a few rods and used "oversized" guides. Usually a #2 near the top. Now I find myself occasionally taking them off and putting on smaller guides on those older rods. (But not a lot smaller. Hard to quit a habit cold turkey). One thing is that the lines seem so much better now than they were 20 years ago. The lines are so slick and cast so well, particularly the little running line on a 4 or 5 wt wf, that guide size does seem not to make too much difference. And there are more rods for light lines. A double taper 7 wt might take larger guides than a 4 wt.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2006 03:46PM by Bill Moschler.

i have some of my reels set up for shooting heads. i use those slip on loop connectors and i have had some trouble passing them through some of the guides on some of my rods. so, guides that would accomodate those connections might be a size larger than i would normally use. but then, they wouldn't be "oversize" at all. they would be the right size for those lines and connections.

Another thing to think about. Snake guides have two ( 2 ) feet that have to be wrapped. Plus epoxy. Extra weight hinders performance. You might be better with single foot wire guides less weight. Just a thought.

I think that was LA Garcia's point is that by using larger guides than what was called for with the rod build, it helped the rod to shoot line farther. It would cast better and father because of the larger snakes. But based upon everyone's input here It seems like this may just be overkill and just add weight to the blank. Based upon the web supplied specs, I show the following guidelines for the snakes:

9' 2-4wt 2 piece
Spacing 5 -10 1/4-16 1/4-22 1/2-29 3/4-37 1/8-45 3/8-53 3/4-65
Guide Size 1-1-1-2-2-2-3-3-4 & #12 stripper

As far as guide size, is this accurate? Any thoughts about doing it differently? I am planning on following the static testing guidelines provided by Tom K.

Tim





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2006 10:21AM by Tim Kelly.

I would use a high frame stripper. I also like the extra choke guide up 4". May not be necessary on a 4 wt, but I put it on 9', 4 wt. Maybe a high frame 12, a high frame 10 and a #8 transition to the snakes.

Tim. I would say your selection of guides is about right. Also "oversize" by traditional standards. When I see 5 weight bamboo rods built with 2/0 snakes and #8 agate strippers, I think "this rod could use bigger guides"! Silk lines are smaller in diameter than PVC coated lines. These days I tend to pay more attention to the diameter of the tip. A narrower diameter tip looks aesthetically better with smaller size guides, but you can overdo it. I spoke with Garcia in Denver years ago as I was building a 3 weight Sage. I don't recall him specifying larger guides only on saltwater rods. The Sage I built at that time used #2 guides as the smallest. I might use #1s today and definitely would switch to single foots. Don

I will add this, if you're going to go with the above selection, toss out all the 2's and 3's. You don't need them. Go from the 12 to the 4 and then right on to the 1's the rest of the way out. You don't have to use all the in-between sizes just because they're available.

..............

Tom~

Do you mean that I should follow this configuration?
#12 stripper-4-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-tip
or
#12 stripper-4-3-2-1-1-1-1-1-1-tip



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2006 01:57PM by Tim Kelly.

I'm currently building a 10-wt for saltwater, and I've been monkeying with guide sizes for a while. So while your rod will be used for a completely different purpose than mine, maybe the messing around I've done will help you out.

For starters, Tom K is right: find the smallest size guide that will work for you, and then, moving up the rod from the reel, get to that size as quickly as you can, and then use identical-sized guides all the way up the blank (including the tip top). For my rod, I determined that the best size for me was a size 8 ceramic ring, and after test casting and all the rest, I determined that the best way to get to an 8 was with a high-frame, size 20 stripping guide (I acually used an SVSG-style spinning guide); a size second spinning guide, size 12 ; one size 10 ceramic, and then 8's all the way to the Size-8 tip top.

But how did I determine that a size 8 would work best for me?

Well, I thought about this, and what I realized is that the guides have a couple of purposes:

- facilitating casting
- assisting with line retrieve while fighting a fish
- enabling connections to pass easily through the guides

The problem with this is that when building a rod, you can be pulled in different directions by these competing needs. You can, by using extra-large guides, make sure that any connection you could ever use will pass easily through the rings, but you'll be sacrificing much performance by doing this. So how do you find a compromise?

Here's what I did (I'm a newbie, and I'll probably be excoriated for offering bad advice, but I just went through what you're going through, and my method worked for me): I took the fly reel I was going to mount to the finished rod, and inserted it in the reel seat. I made sure that the reel was fully spooled with backing, fly line, leader, and tippet -- everything but a fly. It was configured exactly the way it would be when I would be fishing with it (except for the fly).

I looked at all the connections that might have to pass through the guides -- the knot between the backing and the fly line, and the knot between the fly line and the leader. I picked the bigger one, which for me was the connection between the fly line and the leader, and untied it. I then retied it as sloppily and as loosely as I could, to make it even bigger than it would normally be.

Then I had a helper (my patient wife) do some experiments with me. I started with size 5 running guides, and didn't even bother to put them on the blank -- it looked like the knot wouldn't even fit through. Same with size 6 -- it looked like it might pass, but it would be very tight.

Size 8's looked pretty good, so I mounted them to the blank and ran the line through them. I started with the knot at the reel, and had my wife pull the knot through the guide as fast as she could, to simulate a running fish (hopefully a 50 lb. striper). With size 8's, the knot passed through easily. I tried a few more times, just to be sure, but each time it went well. I tried it the other way, and same result -- the knot passed through the guides with no problem.

I then tried size 10 ceramics, and got essentially the same result -- the knot went right through. But -- and here's the important part -- because there was no difference in performance between 8 and 10, I went with size 8, because Size 8 guides will be lighter, and will therefore provide better overall rod performance. And if my poorly-shaped nail knot breezed through them, then the knots I'll use when I'm actually fishing -- which will be smaller -- will pass without even a hiccup.

I've taken too long with this, I know, but here's basically what I did, and what I recommend: find the biggest connection you will be using, make it a bit bigger, and then experiment with what size guide allows it to pass through easily. Then use that size for your running guides, and get from the reel to your running guide size as quickly as you can.

And while you're at it, forget about words like "oversize" or "undersize." There is the right size for what you're doing, and then there is everything else. And our job as rodbuilders -- not rod "assemblers" -- is finding that right size.

Tim,

Use the first set up. Those in-between sizes do absolutely nothing for you. They do not result in a more gradual control of the line or anything of that kind. The line drops between a space between the guides - if you plot the actual path you'll see that it's much straighter, and better, if you cut out all those other sizes. Just go right from your stripper to the smallest guide you plan to use. You can add one larger in there if it makes you feel better.

.............

Thanks to everyone for the great feedback, I'll be doing my order for the remaining rod components based upon the great direction you've given me. Thanks again.

Tim Kelly