We've been playing around with Madeira and have had mixed results with color preservers. My trusty 811seems to leave a residue that's not really visible until after the finish has been applied on darker colors. Many of the others seem to leave a milky build-up in places and when thinned, don't allow the threads to return to anywhere near the same brilliance that they had on the spool.

Last week I got my hands on a bottle of the CP that Jim Upton uses on his beautiful weaves with Madeira (a secret formula of Moose knuckles & Bat guano, or something like that), but it’s no longer in production. Billy, Sean, I’ve seen your work and I didn’t see any of the residue that we’ve experienced.

As we just got set up as a Madeira Dealer, we need to have the right CP on the shelf for our customers. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated!


Mark Griffin
[]
C&M Custom Tackle
San Dimas, California

Hey Mark

Have you tried the Diamondite CP yet? My bottle is still insealed. I have not experienced
any problems with the bottle of 811 I have now. A bottle of THICK 811 did cause some
headaches though.

Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..

Mike did last night in fact on a bright neon green. Full strength, cut 25% cut 50%. It doesn't look like they're fully dry yet, but it's been pouring rain so we'll see. We're going to finish all of them and see what's what...



Mark Griffin
[]
C&M Custom Tackle
San Dimas, California

Mark,

I've had no problem with 811 except for one bottle that I had that was to thick (OK after I thinned it) Also had no problem with Flexcoat although I prefer 811.

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Mark,
I've been using Color Lock on the last couple rods that I've built using Madeira exclusively. No residue and no problems whatsovever with applying finish. Randy.

Mark,

I have been using thinned 811, about 20%. I was applying two coats of this, and would get crystals which were very visable on the darker colors. I now use one coat, and have had no issues.



Sean Endres
North East Rod Builders
New London, CT

Does that mean tha @#$%& now carries Madiera thread...it still says "...coming soon..."?

Mark; Right now I'm using Gudebrod 811. I still have some of the uncut "Secret Sauce" but it darkened the threads some. I'm waiting until Andy Dear comes out with his new CP to see if that's any better. I have my fingers crossed. Everything I have tried either causes the thread to darken or I get that foggy result on black thread. Drives me nuts. I thin 811 only if it's thick to start with and apply at least two coats. I have so much time in some of these weaves a blotch would really unhinge me so I live with the haze.

I will be glad when Mark starts carrying Madiera Thread. I have had no problems down here in this heat with 811. Of course it is 90 degrees outside and dry as a bone. Sure like all the colors of Madiera.

Big John
Rio Hondo, Texas
Blessed are those who can give without remembering and take without forgetting

Personally....I have been doing a couple of no-no's with success....So Far. I use both dilute high end white "craft glue" and Future Floor Acrylic and both work pretty well for a "kitchen sink" rodbuilder like myself...Of course I also dumpster dive at my local building supply company looking for raw materials for wrapping stands, storage shelves, etc.

Hey, try it, you may like it.

Never though I would see the day that a supplier would start carrying Madeira thread.....Thank God!



Derek L. McMaster
Rohnert Park, CA

Born to Fish, FORCED to Work

I have tried all the different CP's and have found the one that works the best is Trondak U-40. I did not like the Gudebrod product for the very reason mentioned and found the Trondak did much better at maintaining the colors and seems to hold for a long time.
When Doc Ski visited my place in Mexico, he indicated that I could be doing a better job on CP application to avoid color fade and sure enough, I started using heavy coats on some really delicate thread work that I did not want to fade and after two years, everything looks as good as new.

Thanks all! The wraps coated with a 25% dilution of Diamondite are looking the best so far of everything we tried. I'll order up some U-40 on my next Trondak order and give that a shot as well. White glue, huh? Hmmm...

And YES, Maderia is on the way! We ordered up every Poly Neon 40WT color they make. Can't WAIT to try and put THAT on the website! Ugh. The order is due in this week. As soon as we get it , check it in and sort it out, I'll put up a "Now in stock..." post.

Mark Griffin
[]
C&M Custom Tackle
San Dimas, California

Why is it that people dilute many of the CPs on the market? It looks to me that the manufacturers would respond to this. If their formula is so off, why whouldn't they change it? Is it because these products change so radically between geographic regions with differing temperatures & climates? What is the deal here?

Just trying to understand CP as I typically don't use it, but always keep a bottle of U-40 on hand just in case.

Jay

Jay, I have also always wondered that! It seems to me that all that is accomplished by diluting is to make sure that LESS of the actual CP solids are available to do the job since the liquid (water or solvent) is just a carrying agent for the solids and doesn't do anything as far as preserving color goes. I would think that if diluting had any positive effect, the manufacturer's (rebottlers) would do it themselves and make more of a profit. Same goes with finishes, etc. Some people just automatically, thin everything and I just never understood why. Gudebrod 811, although it's my favorite, is so inconsistant in viscosity that sometime I have to thin enough to be able yo use it, but that's the only thing that I have ever thinned (hurry up with the new CP, Andy).
I do wish that some of the companies would jump in with some info here! Ralph, Hint, Hint.

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

I thin 811 because I know the consitancy it HAS TO be for ME to get perfect results every single time, with only 1 coat. I'm not even using 811, I use Brilliance 2, which I was told is uncut 811. I've used both, and to me the B2 is exactly as advertised. Thin, thin, thin, brush on, no foam, let dry, apply finish - no more blotches.

If you do a search here under BLOTCH, I'm sure you'll find a few posts with my anme under it and a lot of info on CP.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/18/2006 01:11PM by Billy Vivona.

Billy, Are you saying to thin it or apply it in thin coat??

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

I thin it, apply a lot, wick off excess, make sure there is no foam, and I'm done. More importantly, I make sure the threads are wrapped & packed as tightly as possible, the tension is the same. There's a lot more to people's CP problems than just the CP doesn't "work". Each person has to tinker with it and get it to work for them, however they apply it. I'm not a rocket scientist, there is a reason I do not let teh CP "foam up" on the threads, next time you apply it, have a test wrap with black thread, and wick the foam off the brush onto the thread, and let it dry. Then put finish over it - you'll see where the crystals are coming from.

Our last test with the Diamondite really confirms what Billy said. Everything was ducky with the Medeira/Diamondite combo EXCEPT for a couple of "streaks" where the threads weren't packed tight enough. There wasn't a gap in the threads or anything, certainly not enough to see under wrap through. It seems like the solids from the CP just kinda built up there and wasn't even noticable until the finish went on. THEN it stuck out like a sore thumb. The 40wt. is so small I don't think I could have seen this in advance w/o a magnifier, but there it was, big as life as soon as the finish went on.

By the way, we tried Diamondite CP straight, cut 25% and cut 50% and the color retension was best on the wraps that were coated with UNCUT CP. 50% darkened the threads the most . They never really "came back" once the CP had dried.

I think we're going to go back and try some "warmed" 811. I've floated the bottle in a cup of warm water before and it brought the viscosity down without actually thinning the CP.

I think we're getting close to being able to recommend several CP's to go along with our Madeira, but it looks like if they aint packed tight enough, nothing's gonna work well! Odd, as I've never run into this with Rice or Gudebrod. Possibly because they don't have the same luster as Madeira?

Mark Griffin
[]
C&M Custom Tackle
San Dimas, California

Mark - the other threads do not stretch and are not as tightly twisted as Madeira is. that's why you see through it like that when it's not tightly packed. imo. easy enough to see, just make a couple of wraps with madeira, and look really close......better yet, look at this pitcure:

[www.rodbuilding.org]

then click on it and look at it ultra close up. you can see where the thread twists and it gets thinner.

Trying warmed 811 sounds positive. I'll try that technique on some light test threads and see what happens.

Stan