Well, last night was a heartbreaker. I helped a buddy build a rod and he wrapped it while I was out of town... he commented when he watched me wrap that my thread tension was much looser than his. I remembered threads here that suggested too much tension would result in breakage... but he opted not to re-wrap it.

It broke while we were fishing last night, at the base of a wrap. What an empty feeling for both of us. The only bright spot is that he caught a bunch of fish before it happened.

My question now, since I'm a little spooked also, where do you draw the line... how loose is too loose for thread wraps?

Thanks for any insight.

Keith

Have you checked the guide prep ? Were they preped well ? That also can cause it.

I kind of go with if about 5 threads will not lend themselfs to being pushed in order to pack them, it is too tight. Try letting your friend do a wrap on some scrap, check to see how the thread moves when pushed.

Keith,

There have been previuos posts on this. You may find a search will reveal what you want. It is still a little subjective thread tension. It may not have been over tensiond thread that caused the problem. You are guessing at this stage. It may be impossible to find the real reason for the blank failure. Thinner the blank wall the more careful you have to be. But you can go the other way and not apply enouh tension.

Regards

Mike Oliver

I realize this is almost impossible diagnosis over the internet and I also realize this is an extremely subjective topic. I feel good about the guide prep since I was there helping with it and checked each guide as he finished them. I did pack some on the butt wrap before he applied finish... it was very tight, and tough to pack at all. So, I feel like this was the "problem" he had.

I read that the magnetic thread tensioner held something like 4oz of tension... if that is a good guideline it would be fairly simple to use some lead weights to measure feed pressure on my and his tensioners. I'd obviously double check that number before using it.

Have any of you used a weight to measure "optimum tension" before? I'd be realy interested to hear what the amounts are.

Thanks again,

Keith

Keith -

What kind of rod blank was this ?
- length / power / taper / line / lure / material ?

What kind of line guides were they ?
- single-foot, double foot ?

Have you examined the underside or the guide foot for burrs or spurs, that may have been there from the factory or from his guide preparation ?

Where along the rod blank did the fracture occur ?
How far from the rod tip ? Is this a multi-piece rod blank ?

When did it break ? - during a cast, ... setting a hook,
... high-sticking a fish when landing ?

What kind of fishing line and pound test was being used ?

Was the reel's drag working properly ?

Was this an unusually large fish ?

Keith, as I am trying to suggest, and as you can see, this is more like a homicide investigation than a simple open & shut case of evidence & conclusion.

In point of fact, if a rod leaves the rod rack without breaking, and survives the usual warm-up bending exercises you will give it after its epoxies and finishes have dried, then the thread tension usually has NOTHING TO DO with most rod failures on the water. It is more likely some other coincidence.

Best Wishes with the investigation.
Don't be too quick to jump to conclusions.
You could miss the real problem and have it happen again.
-Cliff Hall+++, Gainesville, FL-USA*****

Keith - Unless this is a very thin walled rod blank, over a fairly small diameter segment, then I would say that a mere 4 OUNCES of thread tension could not produce enough force to collapse the tube while the rod is being bent.

The tensile strength of most rod wrapping threads is several pounds per strand, which suggests that 4 oz of thread tension is way below the safety limit for crushing a rod tube. ...

Ralph O'Quinn, Mr. U-40 and Mr. Rod Repair, has said at least once in the last year that it is almost impossible for thread tension alone to ever cause a rod blank tube to have a crush or collapse failure. .. If I can find the citation, I will Post it later

Meanwhile, ... Consider the other myriad of questions above with equal deliberation, in addition to whatever you and the others can suggest, ... IMO, ... -Cliff Hall+++



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/13/2006 12:18PM by Cliff Hall.

Cliff Hall wrote above: "Ralph O'Quinn (ROQ), Mr. U-40 and Mr. Rod Repair, has said at least once in the last year that it is almost impossible for thread tension ALONE to ever cause a rod blank tube to have a crush or collapse failure. .. If I can find the citation, I will Post it later ."

Here is what ROQ actually said about a rod failure that occurred BEFORE the rod was ever fished: (Admittedly, this is different than your buddy's situation, Keith. But now that I brought it up, I'll just present the entire context of ROQ's comments to all, so that you can decide for yourselves what insight it provides to this situation. -Cliff Hall+++)

Re: Remember, too much tension = BIG MISTAKE
Ralph O'Quinn Sept. 26, 2005 18:46
[www.rodbuilding.org]
Ralph O'Quinn wrote: "There is no way that too much tension will cause the breakage of that blank. You simply must have had a very improperly prepared guide foot, and possibly a faulty blank. There is nothing in the burnishing process to cause breakage either. You can wrap that blank with a properly prepared guide foot with so much tension on size A thread that you can break the thread and still not cause the blank to break. Too much tension will cause problems and probably breakage somewhere down the line after several hours of casting and general usage of the rod --- but not in the shop before all the guides are tied ---. Your breakage was caused by something besides merely too much tension, and a poorly prepared guide foot is the most obvious culprit. -Ralph O'Quinn.

Re: Remember, too much tension = BIG MISTAKE
Ralph O'Quinn Sept. 27, 2005 21:41
[www.rodbuilding.org]
"When you examine those blanks for flaws -- what you are looking for is any "out of roundness condition" A perfectly round structure will not collapse with the load that 'A' thread is capable of imparting. However any slight out of roundness resulting in an oval shape is another story. An oval can readily be collapsed with A thread -- even in the heavier area towards the butt end of a blank. Combine an oval shape with a burr on the guide foot and you have the makings of your disastrous experience. Ralph "

Other comments in that Post are noteable as well.
-Cliff Hall+++



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/13/2006 12:51PM by Cliff Hall.

Cliff,

I said the tensioner I read about used 4 ounces, not the device he used. (Still trying to find a way to measure the "right amount" ot tension for us newbies) I would suggest that he used lbs of tension, not ounces. He was snagged when this happened and I did not see what he did to cause the break. But considering the break was almost a perfect circle at the base of the thread and not a splitered break, I believe that was at minimum, a contributing factor. I think he grabbed the rod in the middle to increase leverage, in an attemp to either free the snag or break the line.

We all know that grabbing the blank in the middle is wrong, but I have fished with him for years and this was our first broken rod. So this being a much heavier blank than any other he has, I bet there was more to it than just grabbing the middle. (if that's what he did)

Unfortunately the line also broke at about the same time... so the rest of the rod is 20' below the surface and there is no guide foot to examine. The break did occur at where the wrap begins, not at the foot itself. there is only about 1/64" of threadmaster on the end of the carcus. (his wraps began a good way ahead of the feet.) We will likely never find out exactly what happened... but hope to find a few "take-a-ways" from the experience.

Thanks.

I set my tension by using a ziplock bag with 34 pennies in it. Adjust the tension until the bag just falls slowly. Not very high tech but it is repeatable.

Hope this helps.

rhr

Thread tension alone won't usually harm a rod blank. It's when you combine extreme tension with a poorly prepped guide foot where you run into trouble. Wrapping tension is cumlative - each wind increases the tightness. If you have a guide foot that isn't flat, you are taking what spot or small areas that do contact the blank and putting a tremendous amount of pressure on the blank in small, concentrated areas. I woman's high heel shoe will easily sink in soft ground. A flat bottomed tennis shoe will not.

After a guide has been wrapped, if you cannot move it with slight sideways pressure, it's too tight. If you can easily move it, with very little pressure, even a light "bump," then it's too loose. Think snug, not tight and you should be about right. And get those guide feet flat.

...........

Wow, ... and uugghhhh! ... A broken rod on a snagged hook. ...

Sometimes, when trying to unsnag a hook, or pop the line if our first attempts to dislodge the hook do not work, it's easy to forgot to point the rod tip DIRECTLY IN-LINE and AT the lure, to put NO pressure on the ROD blank itself, and keep ALL the pressure as tension on the fishing LINE.

Hold the rod off to the side of your body, so the line doesn't whip you in the face or the lure doesn't shoot you in the stomach. You can walk backwards to pop the line, and just grab the spool with your hand to lock down the spool. The drag doesn't need to be wrenched down.

Grabbing the rod half way up the rod blank is a (very) dangerous thing to do when unsnagging a hook or pressuring a fish. ... Duh, ... I know you already said that Keith, but it bares repeating.

This sounds like a hidden defect in the rod blank, in my opinion, that just coincidentally occurred at the beginning of a guide wrap. And it was revealed because of the rod's mishandling. ...

I seriously doubt that thread tension, or anything about the line guides, had anything to do with it. Without you being able to see the upper section, it is hard to speculate much more than that.

You can easily measure your thread tension by simply tying a bag of lead sinkers to the end of your thread as it comes off your tension device. Pick a tension weight that works for you, and the guides & rods you build with. "Snug" but not "too shug" is what you will hear around here.

I have a different philosophy about it, which is more like using a thread tension on my guide wraps that is "as tight as I can make it without getting into trouble." ... Another subjective magnitude. ... Read these two Post & Relies below if you want further description & explanation. ... -Cliff Hall+++, Gainesville, FL-USA

Re: forgot to use the Forhan wrap ... Cliff Hall ... 02-11-06 11:23 ... [www.rodbuilding.org]
"Can you move the guides on the rod now, more than you'd like to be able to move them on the finished rod later? … If yes, then you need to re-wrap with a higher thread tension anyway, regardless of whether or not you use a Locking Wrap." -Cliff Hall

Re: how tight should wraps be ... Cliff Hall ... Nov. 16, 2005 11:31
[www.rodbuilding.org]
Q: “How tight should guide wraps be?”
A: Your guide wraps should be at least tight enough to resist the forces to which your guide will be subjected. If you want to be able to move the guide around while wrapping & aligning on the rack, then that same force will move the guide later as well. The thread finish is not an adhesive, and the thread finish does not magically secure the guide. (It does protect the thread from abrasion and moisture.) -Cliff Hall

Also, one thing to consider is if the blank could have been dropped or pinched against
something or even rough handled during shipping or after receiving it.
My sister had a couple of rods stored behind a door in her apt. and they got knocked into the
door jam and the door closed on them. She tought they made it thru unskathed but the first
time she put a good bend on the casting rod it broke! It had been damaged and the damage
could not be seen with the naked eye.

Just a thought

Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..

" ... the break was almost a perfect circle at the base of the thread and not a splitered break, ..." ... Any sign of a rough spot or sharp edge on the rod rack's supports or rollers ? ... The possibility of a circular scratch or scribe line on the rod blank certainly comes to mind, ... -Cliff Hall+++

Keith
Sounds like he broke it him self ? Putting his hand up onto the blank and trying to get loose from a snag ?
It may not have broke if he " pointed " the rod at the snag and pulled back to break the line.
Sounds like high sticking to me ??

Got to teach him how to use a fishing rod.

Thanks for all the ideas, and thanks Ralph for the penny count, I'll used that to compare what my tension is set at. I found out last night, that there was only one hand on the rod when it broke, it was on the handle and the rod was in the neighborhood of 30 degrees to the snag... I now think it was a defect or even shipping damage that we didn't see prior to the build.

Oh well, it's done. Just a bummer.

Thanks again,

Keith

If the line broke just as the blank broke, it may have been rated wrong ? You may be able to get another blank ? Hope it had a guarantee ? Check with the sponsor and or company that made it.

I haven't checked on warranty yet, he boiled off the cork and reel seat last night and stripped the 2 guides that were left. Will that matter for a possible warranty? I didn't know if you had to send the "rod" in as opposed to just the remaining blank. I will call the sponsor and find out, though.

I'm thinking the line was cut on the blank as it broke... but that is only speculation on my part.

Thanks again,

-keith