I'm ready to build my first heavy tuna rod(Calstar 7465H) using the All American Acid Roller guides but don't like offsetting the first and second guides necessary to keep the line off the blank. It seems a simple way to avoid this would be to use a "bumper" guide tween the first two guides, I'm thinking a Fugi HNSG 8 or 10 size.
What do you guys think? Will it work? Problems other than more line wear with the ring guide verses roller guide? How much pressure on that bumper guide anyways? Seems to me the most pressure on guides is towards the end of the rod where its bending downwards. This will be used as primarily a rail rod and is quite stiff utilizing a minimum of 100# line more likely short 130# flouro topshots.

It should work fine. The bumper doesn't get any side loads. My only concern would in fact, be line wear versus the rollers but I think you're going to just have to try it and see how it works for you.

..........

According the John Mantele, acid roller inventor, Upton is trying stainless steel tape in place of the bumper guide, seems to me a SIC guide would offer less friction than ss tape???

Jim,
The farther off of the center line of the rod that the line passes the higher the load on your bumper guide. To minimize the load I would try to mount the bumper guide so that the line passed as close to the rod as possible. Upton's idea of using stainless steel tape would certainly keep it close but I guess I would have the same concerns about friction that you do.
As far as where most of the load on the guides is that is going to be a function of the total load on the rod and how much the rod is bending. If the load on the rod is low and the rod is not bending very much then you are right most of the load will be on guides toward the tip of the rod. But when a heavy load is placed on the rod and the rod beds more then the majority of the load will be on the guides toward the butt of the rod. The rods action will also naturally affect this some but I assume that a rod that you are putting roller guides on has a fairly slow action.

The blank is designed as a rail rod and is VERY stiff for a 61/2' blank, I wouldn't want to fish it standup. Since it won't be bending much, the most pressure should be on the forward roller guides. My only concern will be possible line wear on the bumper SIC guide but that should be minimal.
btw, the stainless steel tape idea was Mantele's, Upton is just gonna play with it - I expect to see Jimbo at Long Beach wed, will discuss with him then if he isn't too busy selling Wonder Weavers !!!

It may be tricky to keep the line in the "V" of the roller if the standoff height of the bumper guide is too high for the distance between the first two transition guides. If enough side load and rapid angle is put on the roller, the line will ride up the roller groove and ride on the o.d. of the roller and rub the frame. Since the blank will be long and very fast you should have enough room to put some distance between the transition guides. Ive built a quite a few @#$%& Roller rods now with different blanks, and the faster less parabolic blanks seem to be the easiest, with a little more room for "angle tollerance". With shorter, more parabolic blanks Ive discovered in some cases that less than a degree either way on the transition guides can make the line ride up on the roller because the distance is so close between the guides. Adding another guide to the mix shortens the distances even more, and creates even more extreme line angles through the transition.
I suspect you may not be able to place the first guide at 0 deg., and the second at 180 deg. with a bumper between without a HUGE distance between to reduce the line angle and side load. I think you may still neet to put at least the 2nd transition guide at an angle. But this is just a guess on my part, wont know for sure until you actually try it.
Keep in mind with a ring guide, the line is allowed to drift radially around the ring througout a quick transition. Because it can drift, the line can follow the path of least restance and ride 360 degrees anywhere on the ring it needs to as it follows the dynamics of the blank while its bent under load. With a roller the force of the line has to be directed into the roller grove with minimal side load throughout the entire rod deflection cycle. Tricky!




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/27/2006 07:37PM by Scott Throop.

Jim,
Scott makes a couple of good points, obviously he has some experience. What would be the problem with using a very small bumper guide, say even a #6? This would keep the line close to the blank and also help keep it lined up on the roller guide.

Scott,
I am just guessing but it seems to me that the allignment is more critical for the roller guide that follows the bumper guide than the roller guide preceeding the bumper guide. If that is true this would argue for having the bumper guide at an angle of more than 90 degrees. Have you experimented with this angle?

Jim and all: I would like to add a few comments shared before with John Mantele regarding the subject.


I wrote to John Mantele a few week ago, related to a comment he made in this forum earlier, and asked him about the subject ,

MY QUESTION TO JOHN MANTELE

JOHN:

Below is an excerpt from a RESPONSE you recently posted under Re: 7' Seeker Black Steel 50#

"Hey Harold! Like I said in the other forums, using the bumper guide is the easiest way to set up an Acid wrapped rod! I'm not doing it another way from now on!"

Does that mean that now when assembling a rod with @#$%& spiral guides...

...a- no transition guide is used ?

...b- a bumper guide is used instead?

If so, which brand/size are you using as a bumper guide ?

I will appreciate your comments, since pretty soon, I will be building a few rods with the @#$%& set of guides.

Thank you
Ricardo Font
Puerto Rico Rods
Bayamon, Puerto Rico
787-528-0030


JOHN MANTELE's REPLY TO ME

RICARDO,

They are referring to Acid Wrapped Rods using standard Ring Guides, not @#$%& Roller Guides.
The bumper guide concept is okay for light tackle. It allows the fishing line to rub on the bumper guides inner surface. This would be a Bad thing for BIG Fish. because the friction could burn through the line.

Do not use the bumper guide approach with @#$%& Roller Guides.
Regards,
John

Emory, I havnt really experimented with bumper guides with the rollers, other than the "bumper ring" idea I was messin around with a couple of months ago. Didnt work well for me with the rollers because of the stand- off from the blank. A framed guide will have even more standoff. The angle would be critical for the first guide also, because of the way line pays off of the reel. When the line travels from one side of the spool to the other, the line may ride up the roller because of the angle of the line on the other side going to the bumper guide. Typically here on the West Coast, these rods will be somewhat short and have fairly large wide reels, and the first guide is usually only about 24" from the reel. The closer to the reel, the more extreme the angle of the line as it goes back and forth from one end of the reel spool to the other. If the first guide is moved farther away from the reel, line strike on the foregrip becomes an issue, depending on the action of the blank of course. This just may work for Jim though, because that blank is pretty long, and very fast taper....not much flex in the backbone. With the length he may be able to get enough separation between the guides and from the reel to make it work.
If I were to make a calculated guess about the angle of the bumper guide, I would think to err on the side of the first guide because of the line travel across the spool, and place it less than 90deg. to reduce the angle of line on one side of the guide to compensate for variable angle going to the reel. But by doing that, it increases the angle to the second guide which is closer to the first than the reel is.......tough call! Definitly something that needs to be tried! Hey Jim, can ya have it done by the Fred Hall Show tomorrow? LOL!

Scott,
Yes, I am sure you are right. I did not even think about the varying angle of the line coming off of the reel. Thanks.
By the way Portland Oregon is on the West Coast. Sorry I could not resist that.

LOL! sorry 'bout that Emory! I should have been more specific, meaning So Cal and south of here.