I'm building a couple of new rods and wrapped the first one with some real nice cherry red thread to match an antique red agate stripping guide I bought for a mint. The first rod I wrapped I just finished with Flex Coat and the thread really darkened to the point it didn't really match the red agate anymore. I didn't use any color preserver because the fellow at the fly shop where I bought the components from said that color preserver will create a "cloudy" appearance in the finish. I've been reading about color preservers being used on this forum here and am curious if this is correct and if so why are people still using it and or what are you doing to not make it cloudy?
Thanks
BjR

Color preserver dries clear. That being said, I have switched from Flex-Coat C.P. to Gudebrod 811 because of a problem that I had with the
Flex-Coat turning cloudy if the area was disturbed ( like touching it with your fingers) after it dried.

The dye in nylon thread is effected by epoxy finishes so if you want the color to stay the same you have to use CP of some kind.

There are many different opinions about the use of C.P. so click the search button here and read on !

Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..

Brad,
It is not correct. Color preserver, properly applied will do just what it says, preserve the color of the nylon thread, it will not become cloudy. If epoxy is applied without color preserver the color will darken, depending somewhat on the underlying color of the blank, and will become translucent.

Any Regular Nylon Thread (non-NCP or non-Metallic) will darken and / or turn translucent when the Thread Finish (TF) is applied, IF the Thread is not treated by you with Color Preserver (CP) PRIOR to the application of the Thread Finish. Brighter colored threads are more prone to darkening or turning "see-thru" in color after the TF is applied, IF no CP is used first. Depending on the color of the nylon thread and the color of the rod blank, the use of CP may be required or may be completely unnecessary, depending on the coloration effect you want.

CP has little to no effect on the fading of thread color due to sunlight or heat. CP does NOT "preserve" the original thread color from sun-bleaching.

CP does not increase the strength of the finished guide wrap.

NCPs (Non Color Preserver nylon thread) and HT-Metallics (Metal Foil Sheath, nylon core thread) do NOT need CP. Period. Using CP may just invite problems, as your research will show you.

Poor application technique of the CP and / or not letting the CP dry sufficiently prior to applying the TF easily accounts for the vast majority of the causes of problems when using CP. Incompatibility of the CP with the TF is usually not much of an issue, even between brands.

Two coats of CP should be all you ever need. If you need or are using more, then something is out of order in your application technique.

THINNING CP is another subject with many different aspects, and the safest summary is to say DON'T thin it. In fact, if you can develop a pleasing color and thread scheme that does NOT require the use of CP, that is also the safest summary on the subject of ... "To CP, or NOT to CP, ... That is the question, ... whether tis nobler ..." ... end of soliloquy, ... -Cliff Hall+++, Gainesville, FL-USA*****

RBO SEARCH = CP [Mssg Body + Subject] LAST YEAR
RBO SEARCH = COLOR PRESERVER [Mssg Body + Subject] LAST YEAR

That Search should easily produce several hours of reading Post & Reply comments, just in the last year. Time well spent, IMO. -CMH+++



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2006 06:41PM by Cliff Hall.

I use it all the time Brad and dont have problems with it. With out it thread that is other than NCP will darken in some cases almost turn black. If you have any doubts look on the photo site here and you will see examples I have placed there. Proof is in the puddin.

Some colors look good without CP. Depends on the color and blank color. I had to put white under yellow in order to get it bright yellow. The dark blank color showed though even with CP

Try some colors on a piece of scrap blank or the butt of the blank you will be going to use with and without CP. 911 is good. The flex coat CP I thin just a little to keep it from getting cloudy

I use Flex Coat on all threads except black NCP. The only problem I have had is when I accidently rub the wrap before I epoxy it. Like Raymond says, you will get a white sheen on it so I am very careful with my wraps. I use it on all wraps including metallics. It helps to keep my weaves in place while I trim the ends and I am willing to bet that I wrap more rods than Cliff does. It also helps the epoxy to go on smoother.

James(Doc) Labanowski Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you have any doubts look on the photo site here
> and you will see examples I have placed there.
> Proof is in the puddin.

I'm pretty new here and haven't found my way around the site too much. I tried a search function of your name in the "photos" section and didn't turn up anything.

Brad here is a link
[www.rodbuilding.org]


Hank
On The Rocks Fishing
Wells, ME.

ELLIS: "I am willing to bet that I wrap more rods than Cliff does."

So am I, ... but I still don't use CP on Metallics, ... but I don't weave, either.

CP should not be NEEDED on NCP or Metallic Thread. If you WANT to use CP on NCP or Metallic thread, for whatever reason, then that's up to you. ...

Ellis, it sounds like you are using CP as a low-viscosity, high-penetration, quick-drying BINDING or CASTING agent. Something to "tack down" the threads while the wrapping or shaving of tie-offs is still in progress. That's a property of CP that doesn't have anything to do with "color preservation" per se. A low-viscosity epoxy thread finish or PermaGloss would probably work just as well as your CP for that purpose. Admittedly, that's a use of CP that I hadn't had in mind for Brad's question.

After seeing Daniel Rotea's splotching from using CP on Metallics [www.rodbuilding.org] ["Problems with CP (milky finish) 03/08/05], the benefit of using CP on Metallics offered no benefits for my applications (some guide wraps, or under-wraps), compared to the risks of splotching.

Obviously, Ellis, CP is useful for you, and free of complications the way you apply it. ... Wonderful! ... -Cliff Hall+++

One minor thing that has not been said in the previous posts is that CP also has the effect of minimising bubbles from trapped air in the thread. Anyone who has applied epoxy to Regular thread without using a CP will tell you that you have to keep the first coat relatively thin. This then lets the trapped air out. The same for NCP but to a lesser degree. The CP is designed to soak right through the thread to provide an anchor, get rid of bibbles and preserve the original colour of the thread (approximate). The epoxy is designed to encapsulate the thread and protect it from damage.

BINGO !!! … Mark Fisher, that was a perfect synopsis.
Very fresh. … Thx, -Cliff Hall+++

Cliff Hall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Any Regular Nylon Thread (non-NCP or non-Metallic)
> will darken and / or turn translucent when the
> Thread Finish (TF) is applied, IF the Thread is
> not treated by you with Color Preserver (CP) PRIOR
> to the application of the Thread Finish.

I'm using Gudebrod Nylon thread. I would suppose it would be labeled if it was a CP thread wouldn't it. I should just assume the thread I'm using is non color preservative and use CP. I'm still a little leery about using it even though I viewed James Labanowski's color comparisons. The fellow I bought the components from teaches rod building classes and the cloudyness issue from CP is what he preaches to class participants. Should I just blow him off and use the CP and not worry about it? Are there some tricks to application other than not touching it after drying that I should be aware of?
BjR

I have been using U40 and I have just tried Gudebrod 811. They are both exceptionally good CP's. With any CP, apply it to the rod in a relatively heavy coat. Then try to remove as much of the buildup as you can. Don't touch the drying CP. Leave it for a while until it dries. I then apply another coat using the same technique. I haven't had a problem with cloudyness applying the CP in this way. With feather inlays I sometimes have up to 5 coats depending on the feathers involved.

Best Regards
Outback

What do you use to remove the buildup?
BjR

Brad, Once you load your brush up and apply the CP, rotate the rod by hand and place a decent amount of CP on the thread. Using the open neck of the CP bottle drag the brush across the edge so that any excess goes back into the bottle. The brush should now be dry enough to go back to your thread. Again rotate the rod by hand and keep the brush against the thread. Every 2 or 3 rotations take the brush back to the bottle and use the edge of the bottle neck to dry your brush agin removing the excess CP. Keep repeating this until you have removed any excess CP from the wrap. It is very easy and doesn't take long at all.

Best Regards
Outback

Thanks Mark
I'll give it a go.
BjR