There is a bit of set-up to my question, so please forgive the details. This is my 5th fly rod to build, and I've been building on the old IMX blanks acquired from Tom White in Fla. There have been some inconsistencies in the blanks from what I've seen thus far. I built a 9 1/2 foot 5-weight 2-piece; which is an awesome tool for bigger rivers and nymphing, like on the San Juan.

I used single-foot Recoils all the way to the tip on the first rod and spined it perfectly. I liked it so much I wanted to build another one for my wife. This time I thought I’d use Fuji Sic guides all the way, hoping for faster shooting. I spined the rod the same and placed the guides basically in the same place, except I did eliminate one guide toward the tip. I have not expoxied the thread yet, so everything at this point except the handle can be changed. This rod was “stiffer” than the first one (not necessarily faster; but stiffer). I could also feel the weight difference between the Recoils and the Sic guides. The rod does shoot better, but at a price.

So I left the Sic on the tip and removed the next 4 guides, replacing them with #2 Recoils. The rod is now noticeably lighter, but is still “stiffer”. There may be an inconsistency in the blank, but I wondered if anyone could comment on using Sic guides all the way up, versus a lighter non-insert guide like the Recoils for the last few guides. Is there data on whether the ceramic guides lose their effectiveness at some point on a fly rod? The Recoils are so light, they don’t take away from the blank hardly at all, but one would think a rod with all Sic guides would shoot better. The single-foot Sic guides are probably lighter after epoxy than a snake guide.

Also, what about the tip? I have an Sic tip on now, which is heavier by far. The epoxy will add weight as well. Again, sorry for the long question, and I’m grateful for any thoughts.

If you actually weigh your Sic tip vs Recoil you may be in for a surprise. I did so with an Alconite, a Recoil, and a standard wire tip top and the alconite turned out to be the lightest.

Stan Grace
Helena, MT
"Our best is none too good"

If you want the lightest setup, then you would want to wrap a guide as your tip. If you do that, Recoils are by far, the lightest. TIp tops are not very light because of all that metal involved in making that tube to go around the tip.

I've always thought about recoils for most of the rod, and then the tip and 1st guid using SICs since those two probably has the most friction/tension. It would not look consistent but may be the best compromise of lightness and slickness. Never tried this - just thinking but it seems that you have already tried it.

Mo

I've used Tom's IMX blanks in the past and due to them being 2nds or "blems",there are some inconsistancies in them.I got 2 2pc 9ft6 6wts from him a few years back and they were VERY different blanks.They ARE definitely legit IMX blanks,but you aren't getting a first run blank that's for sure.If you manage to get a good blank,then they are a decent enough deal as the old IMX blanks are definitely one of the nicest casting blanks ever,but there are better quality,more consistant first run blanks out there for the same kind of money,like the Dan Craft SIG V and FT.

The first one of these 6wt IMX's I built was very good,but the ferrule over lap on it was borderline(it only over laps maybe 1 1/4" at most,maybe a bit less,while most of my other blanks are 1 1/2"-2" t seems).It hasn't caused me any problems though,so it doesn't seem to be a real issue.The blank throws a 6wt line with authority,and has a nice soft tip and stout butt section.It's also extremely straight and light weight(I built it with all zirconia ring ceramics and a graphite barrel/insert A7 seat),and even with the weight of the ceramics(the zirconia guides are extremely heavy to most other guides) on it,it still feels crisp.Unfortunately,the second blank was completely different and a bit of a dissappointment.The butt section feels the same,but the top is very whippy(especially with the ceramics on it).It feels like a 4wt top on a 6wt butt,yet it does still cast a 6wt line fairly well.The action is much slower than the first blank though and it bends deeply down to the ferrule,while the butt remains fairly stiff.The second blank also had a much longer ferrule overlap,closer to 2" or more.I use both as my main stillwater rods,but the first one is FAR more enjoyable to cast or fish.

Regarding the Recoil vs titanium SIC Fugi's,I have been having some similar second thoughts between them myself on a couple of 5wt Dan Craft blanks,one SIG V and one FT.I have sets of titanium SIC Fugi concept guides for each,and was certain that these would be the guides I was going to use,but I made the mistake of taping on some single foot Recoils on each and now I can't decide which to go with.I know the SICs will feel better once a line is on the rod and I'm casting with some line out,BUT,the Recoils feel 100 times better on the rod when simply wiggling it around.The SIC's are light(They are the only ceramics I will use for running guides on a fly rod now because they have the least negative impact on the feel of a blank.I use to like the zirconia guides,but they are just way too heavy IMHO.The heavier ceramics really change the way the blank feels and suck the crispness and recovery out of it,so while they still have advantages over wire guides when it comes to fly line life,smoothness and noise,the blank itself doesn't feel as nice as it does with the lighter guides on it),but you can certainly feel the difference between them and the Recoils on a blank.I have titanium SIC Fugi TLST tops(This top is rated as a size 7 ring,but that is for the outside of the ring,and being as the ring is actually thicker than on the single foot running guides,the inside ring diameter is actually about the same as the size 6 single foot guides,so it matches up pretty well with them.I just wish it was a bit smaller in size) to go with these sets and the TLST tip top is definitely heavier than the single wire Recoil top.In fact,it looks and feels about twice the size of the Recoil top.The single wire,small lop Recoil tops are the lightest tip tops I have seen.

A blank with Recoils on it feels MUCH lighter and crisper in the tip,and this is especially true on the FT I have(the 5wt FT I have has an incredibly light,lively tip on it,and actually makes the 5wt SIG V feel kind of stiff by comparison).Recoils make a blank with guides on it feel as close to being bare as it could be,which is quite desirable,but ceramics are obviously smoother,slicker,and quieter.I think I will end up putting the titanium SIC Fugi's on both blanks,but it's going to be tough not to put the Recoils on just because of how nice the rod feels in the hand with them(the FT feels absolutely amazing).





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2006 01:18AM by Tony Dowson.

I have built a few spinning rods with recoil spin guides, and Fuji sic guides. I have stuck with the recoil guides and found that by using a Pacific Bay ceramic chrome fly tip, with the recoil guides gives a very nice casting, very crisp spinning rod. I ordered a # 4 recoil fly guide to use as a hook keeper, sure surprised at the size when I got it, think I needed a 1 or 2, anyway, I could see why people say they make noise when casting, seemed very thin. I was wondering if anyone has tried using the Recoil Spinning guides on a fly rod, the sixes or sevens. I would think they would be almost as light and since they are double loop may not make the same noise I have herd about with the recoil fly type guide. Just a thought, have a nice day.

Tony thanks for taking the time to reply. It seems we've been on a parallel path with these IMXs. I've been fishing with a guy from Austrailia, and he first built a beautiful 4-wt. I got lucky with the first 5, and this one isn't going to turn out bad...just different.

One of the features he liked about the IMX was the matte finish. Being from Austrailia and fishing in New Zeland, he's very big on the details of stealth that can give you the slightest edge on a fish. While I know that's not as much of an issue here in the States, does anyone know of other matte finish blanks that are sweet like the IMX? Tony mentioned the Dan Craft SIG V and FT and I've thought to move to some Dan Craft blanks after this (I think I'm done with the inconsistencies of the factory seconds) but I think those are both gloss finish if I remember right.

Thanks again for your time and thoughts.

Sounds like you should do a CCS test on that stiffer blank. Just to see what it really is ? It may be a 7 WT ?? Ever thought about Titanium guides ? Light weight and a ceramic ring so you should get more casting distance. If you do and go with the Titans for money, use a Fuji tip top. The Titans do not have a Ti top.

Stan

Your talking just the tip top right ? What about the fly single foot spin or cast guides ?

Bill they come out differently than the tip tops but the only way to really know is to weigh them as there is a lot of variation among the different makes and models. Most of the time the weight difference is so negligible that I seriously doubt the average fisherman could tell the difference by casting the rod in a blind test. It is my experience that to look at the guides and bet on which are heaviest would be risky.

Stan Grace
Helena, MT
"Our best is none too good"

Thanks for the info Stan. Maybe I should invest in a scale ?? I usually go for the unplated frames, less plating less weight.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2006 08:27PM by bill boettcher.

Well, I have to begin another busy work week. Thank you for the great comments. If anyone else can "weigh" in on this, please do, but before the week got busy I wanted to say thanks for helping me think through my problem. I'm going to do the CCS test. I think I'm going to go back to the Sics all the way and go with it. I might have a little firmer 5-weight than I wanted, but I can probably also have a nice 6- weight and a pretty sweet 7-weight, too! Thanks again.

Thomas,the Dan Craft SIG V blanks are available in a matte finish if you want,as well as a gloss clear.The FT's are available in matte finish only I think.The new FTL's may also be available in a matte finish,I'm not sure.

The SIG V is very similar in action to the older IMX blanks,only they are lighter in weight and faster in recovery.I think they are kind of a cross between the Loomis GLX and IMX,in that they weigh as litlle as,or less than the GLX and they recover as fast as,or faster than,the GLX,but they flex a bit further down the blank than the GLX,just like the older IMX blanks.The FT's are a bit heavier(but still very light weight) than the GLX and are probably more durable,plus they have a much faster action and are much more powerful.In fact,the 9ft FT's are one of the fastest action,most powerful blanks on the market.I'm not sure if they recover quite as fast as the SIG V,but they do recover fast.They have a very light,lively tip section,with a very stout,powerful butt.I love the feel of the 5wt FT I have in the hand,but I'm not sure if it "fishes" as well as the SIG V,as I haven't had the chance to try it on the water yet.I know it will be one heck of a "casting" rod though.

There are other excellent blanks on the market with matte finishes like the IMX as well.The Rainshadow RX8+ is one you should definitely check out.I am pretty sure CTS also has matte finish blanks.Both of these blanks have recieved some very high praise here.

Tony's description of these blanks mirrors my own experience to a tee. I have built on most and fished them all but the new FTL's. Those early IMX blanks are still among my favorites in the 3- weight range but I prefer the faster blanks in 5- weight and up. Over time I have migrated to a 5- weight FT as my most used rod but will give a RX8+ a real work out soon.

Stan Grace
Helena, MT
"Our best is none too good"