I'm getting ready to order the guides for my son's bass rod and would like some input on the guide set up. I'll be using the Fuji alconites in the new concept setup. I'm also using the same handle that I have on my rod and I don't really want to start out with a size 30.
I'll have a 20 series reel with a 40mm spool size. There will be about 3 1/2" from the centerline of the spool to the center line of the blank. The spool lip will be about 12" from the butt of the handle with 9 3/4" to the point where the reel foot attaches to the seat. These measurements are very close. When I lay my other rod out on a straight edge like described on the new concept primer it looks like I won't be able to use any guide smaller than a 30. I'm open to all tips and ideas.

Thanks ahead of time for your help.

Ron Greenbank

If the 30 is the correct size to use, and you don't want to use it, then you'll just have to compromise with something that will still work, although perhaps not as well. You can use a 25 to start, and push it farther up the blank, or just start with the 25 and arrange it and the intersect guide on your straightedge and plot the remaining guides in a straight line between those two.

What size line are using?

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Ron,
The 20 reels I have (Shimano, Diawa) all use a size twenty first guide. Usually goes 20, 12, 10 or 8, than 6s to the tip. Another route is the Rich Forhan equal distance tables that are in the archive somewhere. I can supply the tables after work if necessary. There are other ways to solve this also, that I'm sure will be brought up.

RON GREENBANK - As far as guide sizes go, it sounds like 20mm, 16-12mm, 10mm, 8-7mm. It sounds like a relatively lite rod and a small reel; like a 7-footer rated for 6-10# test line.

Anyway, as far as ordering guides goes, you really should think of buying a complete inventory of Alconite guides for at least one rod. Get at least one whole SET of Alconite guides. Order ONE of each of the 30-10mm ring sizes. And FOUR of each of the 8-7mm rings. This is really the only sensible way to approach this task of sizing and placing guides on a rod when you are just becoming acquainted with this whole process of guide layout. Especially for a 7-footer. Any leftover guides will easily fit into your next rod project. Buying some extra guides now is a part of building some flexibility into your guide inventory and layout scheme.

Chances are that you will want to build another rod after this one within the next few months. A set of Alconite guides is usually only around $15 for a 6-foot rod, and it is easier than double-ordering and paying two S&H charges because you are without the right inventory to do the job correctly in the first place. This day will come soon enough, believe me. Good Luck, Cliff Hall+++, Gainesville, FL-USA*****

guide setup for 7' spinning rod:
P.S. – It sounds like your reel shaft’s centerline is not “Intersecting” the rod blank until out somewhere very close to, if not well past your rod tip. Is that correct, Ron. … Now opens the can of worms, …

You will have to “create” an Intersect Point, since this reel’s spool shaft has an upsweep angle, (maybe assumed to be 4 degrees), which does not fit the original assumptions of the Intersect Method as laid out by Mr. Kirkman’s interactive methodology.

Here’s one description of how to create this Intersect Point. Do not even mount the reel. Leave it off the rod. Assuming you are right handed:

Do this standing up, since the rod is 7 foot tall. Hold the rod butt still against the inside arch of your left foot. Position the rod’s backbone vertically. Now firmly grasp the rod tip in your right hand. Hold the tip section (about the first 6 inches) at a 90 degree angle to the butt section (of the rod blank between the reel and where the butt guide will likely go (about 2 feet forward of the reel)). You may find it necessary to stabilize the rod blank with your left hand near the alleged butt guide location, or just below it. NOW pay attention to the curvature of the rod blank. There will be a section above this straight butt backbone where the curvature of the rod blank rapidly starts to veer away from the vertical backbone of the rod blank. It will likely be somewhere between 14-24 inches above the butt guide. It will begin ~ 3 feet in front of the face of your reel spool (where your reel seat & foregrip meet). THAT break-away or veer-off section is a good approximation for your Intersect Point. Its exact location will depend on your rod length and rod taper. For a 7 foot rod, it may be ~ 20 inches above where you decide your Butt Guide needs to be.

I’ll refer to this as the Funnel Zone or the Choke Zone, in keeping with Tom Kirkmans’s designation of Choker Guides.

Now you have the Free-Flow Zone: the open space between the Reel Spool and the Butt Guide. Butt guide ring size = ~50% of Reel Spool OD. Butt guide is 18-24” ahead of the reel spool for most 6 foot spinning rods.

Then you have the Funnel or Choking Zone: this is a section about 16-28 inches above the Butt Guide which accomplishes the task of funneling the spinning line into the next section, the Running Guides. There will often be 3 guides in this Funnel-Choking Zone. Example: 30-20-12mm or 25-16-10mm.

And then you have the Running Guides: small guide rings, lite weight guides, fairly uniform intervals / distribution, out toward the rod tip. The rod has the shortest radius of curvature in this section, and it is the most easily affected by poor guide selection or placement. Keep the system mass low, and distribute the load evenly.

It is almost as if it does not matter whatsoever what your reel diameter is when considering the geometry of this Funnel Zone. Consider the slope angle of this trapezoid, which has two-90-degree angles along the rod blank. The trapezoid is book-ended by the Butt Guide and the Last Choker Guide / Intersect Point (as uprights). The rod blank is the Base. And the top ramp is the fishing line. It looks like a wooden-wedge door stopper, an inclined plane, with the front angle sawn off. The length and ramp angle (or choke angle, usually ~18 degrees for the first 2 guides from the reel) of this trapezoid (or choking funnel) depends mostly on the Distance (from the Rod Blank to the Shaft), and the Distance (from the Butt Guide to the Intersect Point).

In TK’s Method, that top line is formed by the Table edge, from the reel shaft to the rod blank. As I have attempted to describe it by geometry, it is a line from the reel to the rod that is first KINKED or CHOKED by the BUTT guide, and then re-directed into the next guide, and so on. Successive Choking is what I would call it. And the kink line or ramp angle becomes progressively flatter as you approach the rod tip.

I realize and admit that it is somewhat arbitrary to decide the choke angle or the length of the choke zone. But you have to start somewhere. And using a consensus of conventions that acknowledges geometry and rod-craft science is implied.

This is one reason why familiarity with several guide selection and placing methods is important for better rod building, because they ALL have their limits and their strengths. Get eclectic as you go along, and things will shape up nicely.

Commenting further on specifics would be (for any of us) nigh unto writing a whole booklet on the subject, which I ain’t gonna do, and the majority of Readers would not need. So, I will refrain from further elaboration. You all get the idea of what I am describing. And what I’m saying here is nothing new. I certainly am not purporting to be the originator of such ideas. Maybe just the Integrator (or the Insti-Gator!). I just have a writer’s streak that is wider than my backside, and a irrepressible knack for articulation that seems to work for most Readers. …

Earnestly, -Cliff Hall+++, Gainesville, FL-USA*****

Meanwhile, Ron Greenbank, for your own edification, consider the following:
And remember that other brands of guides have analogous Y-frame Series, so don’t feel locked into Fuji if you want to use Y-frame guides in other metals or colors.

These first two resources will help you size most Y-frame or Vee-frame Fuji spinning guides, if the frame is not stamped for size. Use them to verify that what was received in your order is the ring size and guide style that you requested from your Supplier. (Some mix-ups in the stock bins or while picking dozens of orders each day are "inevitable".) Eventually, when your inventory gets large enough to reach a state of disorder, these Tables may help you re-sort the guides. Get a tip-top gauge for re-sorting those. -CMH+++

FUJI RING HEIGHTS:
[www.fujitackle.com]

FUJI RING OD-ID-Width:
from the drop-down menu link
GENERAL INFORMATION
“RING SIZE CHART”
[www.anglersresource.net]

For practical purposes, consider any of the Fuji Y-frame or Vee-frame guides of whatever frame metal (or color) or ceramic ring material to have the same HEIGHT OFF THE BLANK as its analogous counterpart in another series of Fuji guides. The RING OD-ID-Widths will vary slightly with ceramic material for a given ring-flange type, but not much. A "Table of Guide Masses (Weights)" is unknown to me, which is why a nice top-loading scale (+/- 10mg) is on my Wish List. -Cliff Hall+++

NOTICE that FUJI:
Y-Frame RING-HT = ~ 2.0 x RING-OD
V-Frame RING-HT = ~ 1.5 x RING-OD

Y30 = 59mm
Y20 = 51mm

YSG-30J - 5.12g,
YSG-20J - 2.36g,
BYAG30J - 6.00g,
BYAG20J - 2.66g.

FUJI CATALOG, hard-copy:
from the drop-down menu link
GENERAL INFORMATION
“CATALOG REQUEST”
[www.anglersresource.net]

I'll be using 8 lb. or less.

Ron

The Rich Forhan Formula if you want to try it.
7 ft rod:

Distances are from guide to guide starting at the tip.

5-6-6-6-6-7-7-8, if your tip top tube size( where the rod blank goes in the tip top) is a 4.5 or smaller Rich recommends a first guide measurement of 4.5 inches. All the other distances stay the same.

Guide sizes starting at the stripper:

B or CYAG 20J - 12J - 10J - then 6 B or CLAGs to the tip with a 6 B or CFAT tip top.