Maybe you guys can either confirm my thoughts on something or fix my thoughts so they are correct.

If one was to use too heavy of a guide or too much epoxy on a rod you could get a rod to feel like it is softer then the blank was before the build.

My thoughts on this is because of the added weight when someone does the wiggle test, the added weight cause more force to be applied to the other end of the lever (the rod). So then the rod will feel softer when wiggling or casting because the weight takes longer to slow its movement and will move further then just the blank.

However the power of the blank wouldnt change because the addition of guides, thread and epoxy would not change the resistance that is built into the blank.

Say for example it would take the same amount of force to bend the rod then would be needed to bend just the blank.

I have also observed that guides, thread and epoxy have cause some of my rods to have a little more resistance the the blanks. Basicaly I used a scale to measure the force needed to bend the blank a certain amount of distance from 90 degrees and found that a little bit more wieght was read on the scale after the build, then before. Maybe there is some flaw in my testing or something I didnt take into account.

Any thought would be a great help

Adam S. Hoelper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If one was to use too heavy of a guide or too much
> epoxy on a rod you could get a rod to feel like it
> is softer then the blank was before the build.

Yes, added weight will lower the resonance frequency. This is the softer feel. Also the longer the blank (all things being equal) the greater the effect.

> My thoughts on this is because of the added weight
> when someone does the wiggle test, the added
> weight cause more force to be applied to the other
> end of the lever (the rod). So then the rod will
> feel softer when wiggling or casting because the
> weight takes longer to slow its movement and will
> move further then just the blank.

That's a good way to think about it.

> However the power of the blank wouldnt change
> because the addition of guides, thread and epoxy
> would not change the resistance that is built into
> the blank.

Mainly correct. There will be a very small (so small as to generally be ignored) force from the guide wraps. The wraps will keep the blank from crossectionally deforming into a oval. But like I said, this effect can safely be ignored unless you wrap to tightly (to the point where it would be unsafe for the blank)

> Say for example it would take the same amount of
> force to bend the rod then would be needed to bend
> just the blank.

Pretty much so.

> I have also observed that guides, thread and epoxy
> have cause some of my rods to have a little more
> resistance the the blanks. Basicaly I used a
> scale to measure the force needed to bend the
> blank a certain amount of distance from 90 degrees
> and found that a little bit more wieght was read
> on the scale after the build, then before. Maybe
> there is some flaw in my testing or something I
> didnt take into account.

How much difference are you talking about?
I would try to repeat this test on other rods and see what you get.


Christian

Christian Brink Wrote:

>
> How much difference are you talking about?
> I would try to repeat this test on other rods and
> see what you get.
>
>
> Christian


Well the difference is not alot depending on who you ask. I have a science back ground so any diference was neat to see. Basically it was a couple grams to 10 or so grams. Not much in the grand sceem of things I think. Its more noticable on a bait casters, I think that the guides have an effect like the wires on a ultralite airplane and give it some back tension. If this is the case I would guess that too much would cause the blank to twist under a load? Some thing like its easier to twist the blank then flex the guide?

Thanks for the reply.








Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2006 02:50PM by Adam S. Hoelper.

They are two entirey different things. Check the Glossary page here for defintions of both.

...............

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
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> They are two entirey different things. Check the
> Glossary page here for defintions of both.
>

Yes I under stand that, and used to terms for a lack of a better word. I should have been clearer.


However I was hope to get some insite into my thinking in the content and not my poor choice of a subject title. Maybe something like the observed change in resonance verse the actual effects on the blanks resistance
> ...............

Any weight you add that does not also increase power or stiffness will reduce blank efficienty by reducing the stiffness to weight ratio of the entire structure/assembly.


................

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Any weight you add that does not also increase
> power or stiffness will reduce blank efficienty by
> reducing the stiffness to weight ratio of the
> entire structure/assembly.
>
>
> ................
How are you defining efficienty? The resistance of a blank, or the recovery time when a loads taken off? Or something else?

Im not trying to be difficult. I just would like to know: one if the addition of components changes the power of a rod, my observations are that it does? and two the added weight from components softens the rod when casting and wiggling, what term is used to decribe this effect.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2006 03:02PM by Adam S. Hoelper.

Christian,
The addition of guides has an almost insignificant effect on the rods power and on the rods action (action angle). The epoxy is flexible and the rod will still become elliptical at the guide. If it did not the rod would break at the guide.

Adam,
The added weight of guides that are too heavy or of too many guides though does have a very significant effect on lowering the rods resonant frequency, lowering the damping and lowering its efficiency. The lower resonant frequency and also the slower damping wil result in the rod feeling sloppy and unresponsive and will also result in it not casting as far or requiring more effort to cast a given distance.
A past issue of RodMaker has an article that tells how experiments with a Steelhead casting rod showed that the addition of one additional guide or the use of guides that are just one size larger resulted in a 5% to 10% lowering of the rods performance as determined by measuring the resonant frequency.
Efficiency is normally thought of as the stiffness devided by the weight. The higher the efficiency the more sensitive and more feel the rod will have.
Stiffness is actually a curve not a number and the distribution ot the weight is at least as important as the overall weight but that is probably a level of complexity that you do not care about.

> Mainly correct. There will be a very small (so
> small as to generally be ignored) force from the
> guide wraps. The wraps will keep the blank from
> crossectionally deforming into a oval. But like I
> said, this effect can safely be ignored unless you
> wrap to tightly (to the point where it would be
> unsafe for the blank)

I don't get this. How does guide wraps add to the hoop strength of the blank? Is there something I'm missing?

-- Cheers
-- James

You may be missing epoxy <grin> Guide wraps add to the hoop strength of the blank by reinforcing the tube at the point of the wrap. While thread will deform when the rod bends, giving some slight resistance, when you coat it with epoxy, the resistance increases significantly.

Jim

Jim Benenson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You may be missing epoxy <grin> Guide wraps
> add to the hoop strength of the blank by
> reinforcing the tube at the point of the wrap.
> While thread will deform when the rod bends,
> giving some slight resistance, when you coat it
> with epoxy, the resistance increases
> significantly.
>
> Jim

I think I might be missing a definition. Is hoop strength in reference too it's ability to resist crushing, or it's ability to resist the fibres seperating from their resin bonds?

If it's the latter, then I can see how the thread and epoxy increases "hoop" strength.

If it's the former, I still don't understand how something as flexible as thread fishing and thread can add to crushing resistance.

Does anyone have an analogy so my mind can grasp this?

-- Cheers
-- James

The addition of components will how quickly the rod reacts and recovers - the rod will neither respond as quickly nor recovery as quickly as it did originally. The action and power actually remain the same, but the way the rod responds will change as you add weight that the rod must then carry.

Let's go to the diving board analogy - if you jump on a diving board it will deflect and then toss you upwards a certain distance, Then it will oscillate for a period and come to rest. Now take the same diving board, tie a 50 pound sack of cement or sand to the bottom of it, jump on it again. This time it will not toss you as high nor come to rest as quickly as it did before the weight was added. You have not changed the power of the board, but you have increased the weight without any corresponding increase in power.

..............

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Let's go to the diving board analogy - if you jump
> on a diving board it will deflect and then toss
> you upwards a certain distance, Then it will
> oscillate for a period and come to rest. Now take
> the same diving board, tie a 50 pound sack of
> cement or sand to the bottom of it, jump on it
> again. This time it will not toss you as high nor
> come to rest as quickly as it did before the
> weight was added. You have not changed the power
> of the board, but you have increased the weight
> without any corresponding increase in power.
>
> ..............

Thats pretty much what I was thinking, good analogy.
Thanks to eveyone for the replies

James,
Blanks are built with fibers running straight up the blank. These fibers result in the blanks power or stiffness. But there are also fibers that essentially run the opposite direction or around the blank. These fibers give the blank strength to resist being broken by being crushed or twisted. This resistance to crushing force and torque is called hoop strength.
The thread wraps and the epoxy on the wraps will add very slightly to the hoop strength of the blank where the wraps are.

Adam - You're asking all the right questions.
Don't stop now. ... -Cliff Hall+++