I used white thread for a decal, but when I put epoxy on the white thread, they turned translucent. I was told there was no need for color preserve and that if I used color preserve that the epoxy would not penatrate the thread. First time I used white and I really would like to use it.

If you use NCP thread then there is no need for the use of CP. But standard nylon thread will need CP to keep its color. The only place you need to make sure that the epoxy penetrates the thread would be for guides. For thread under a decal, it would not make any difference that I know of if the epoxy penetrated the threads completely or not.

Next time NCP thread, good coat of CP ( to make sure ) then even a coat of finish to give you a good coating for the decal to go over. extra time but worth it.
If you can get another decal do it over ??

You were told something that is incorrect. First, there is no need for the epoxy to penetrate the thread. The thread holds the guide in plact, the epoxy merely protects the thread.

Any regular nylon thread will tend to turn transparent if you do not seal it against the epoxy with something. If you want true white, then NCP white, with the use of color preserver, will give you the truest and brightest white obtainable.


.................

Tom
On a guide you still need some thing to penetrate to fill the channel between the thread and blank, weather it be CP or epoxy -- Right ?

I'm confused about Tom's response. I wrap my guides under medium tension: enough to hold them in place, but loose enough to adjust them after wrapping. I disagree that the epoxy merely protects the thread. I look at the CP and/or epoxy as essential in combining with the thread to make a solid,durable mechanism to hold the guide in place, as well as protecting it. To my thinking, saturating the thread is essential to bonding the guide to the rod. Am I wrong?

I have never used thread on a guide without CP (even metallics) and have never had a guide wrap fail!! Tom is correct! Old habits die hard but the Finish does not add any strength to the wrap, only protection of the thread. Good guide prep will go a long way towards taking care of tunnels as will a dab of finish or CP on a toothpick.

For those that are convinced otherwise, consider that most, if not all, factory rods are done without CP (for economic reasons, not strength) and I probably make as much in a year repairing factory rods as I do anything else. The wraps come off just as easy on them as CP'd ones.

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Yes your right about no CP on factory rods - but even Flex Coat says to thin the first coat to get it to penetrate the threads and " fill " that gap. The tooth pick is good to use, but it is easier to get the epoxy to soak in and fill it. Yes the finish protects the thread and the thread holds the guide.

Bill, That may be, but just because Flexcoat says that does not make it chiseled in stone!! You can find just as many, if not more, that say to NEVER thin finish. Who's to say?????? I'm not saying not to do it that way if you don't want to use CP, I'm just saying that, IMO, it doesn't make for a stronger wrap!

I would really like to know how many of you have actually had a wrap fail and the guide break loose (other that abuse, rod locker hang up, etc). I have asked this question many times on this board and have yet to get one person say that they have seen this happen

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

That's what I said, your right, the thread holds the guide and the finish protects the thread.

The only difference between using CP on a wrap and not using CP is that without CP, the epoxy fills all of the voids between threads and down to the blank. CP is not waterproof. If the epoxy seal fails, then water can get in and attack the CP. Without CP, if the epoxy fails in a spot (cut, crack, whatever) the moisture can only touch that exact spot and won't migrate through the entire wrap.

Putter
Williston, ND

OK, but what about when coating a wrap, most people sat that if the wrap is not coated onto the blank, water can migrate under it and cause rust ? Or a loose guide, or failure.

I have had that happen to me....ankle deep out in the bay tailing redfish everywhere, and out come pop two guides from under the wrap.

NOT FUN.


Andy Dear

Did ya get the fish ???

Randy, That's true BUT as you know, finish is NOT an adhesive so if the epoxy fails or becomes damaged, it won't be long before the finish starts peeling off and will have to be rewrapped anyways. I would have to say that 90% (the other 10% is abuse/accident) of the factory guide repairs that I do are because the finish has cracked (particularly at the base of the guide foot) and the finish is peeling off and the guide is loose. This is on wraps that have no CP on them!! The bottom line is still if you do a thorough guide prep and good finish application, CP or no CP would be a non-issue. Again, I'm not saying that anyone should or should not use CP Some like the look of no CP, some like the look of CP and some want to eliminate a step, which is fine., but when people imply say that no CP gives you a better or stronger wrap, it just isn't so.

Andy, CP or NO CP.

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

"This is on wraps that have no CP on them!!"

Should insert the word "factory" before the word wraps in that statement, though... Factory wraps and a factory finish job. We all know factories outsource most of this work and do it CHEAP, cheap and cheaper.

Whatever...to each his own; just some of my 25 year experience while doing this both ways. And the problems that I had and the ways that I solved those problems on my own.

When one of those wraps fails and moisure gets in there with CP on the wrap(cracks don't get in epoxy JUST because guide grinding is done improperly, a guide catching on something or mishandling does this a lot, too) it ain't pretty. Trust me on this and just hope the guy brings it back to you and doesn't show it to all of his friends saying what a lousy builder so and so is.

Putter
Williston, ND



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2006 08:06PM by Randy Parpart (Putter).

I'm waiting for Ralph's lecture # 3 on thinning CP............

Ok,
I am going to tell you guys right up front I am very biased AGAINST the use of CP, especially acrylic based CP. I think wraps done with CP are weaker than wraps done without. BUT, that does not mean that wraps done with CP are not strong enough to handle everyday fishing use.
My experience was with single foot guides done with FlexCoat CP and FlexCoat lite over the top. The very thing Randy describes happens. If the least little bit of water gets under the wrap, BOOM the CP goes back to milk. That's why I had guides loosen and eventually pull out. When I inspected the wraps post pull out they were soaked in wet CP. What you have to be sure you do is 1. Use a locking wrap, and 2. extend the finish a good 1/8" beyond the wrap to aleviate the chance of water getting underneath the wrap. The weak spot for water to get in is pretty much anywhere around the guide foot, as when the rod flexes the finish around the foot tends to want to dis-engage itself from the blank, and leave a small sliver of an opening for moisture to get in. This is VERY important when using single foot guides. I used to have a 7'6" 4wt St. Croix that had Clemens Brilliance and Crystal Coat on it. Everytime I would use it, the wraps would turn milky...everytime because moisture was getting in somewhere. Fortunately it had double footed snakes on it so there was no danger of guides pulling out. A day or2 later they would dry and all would be back to normal...until the next trip!

Here is the ironoic thing, right after that happened I called Roger Seiders and asked him how to remedy this...his response "Don't use CP...it causes a lot of problems" He went on to infer that they carry the CP because so many builders like to do decorative threadwork, but it's not something he reccomends for maximum durability. I though that was weird so I asked Ralph over dinner one night, and his response was "Stop using CP, and ALL your problems will magically disappear" Now remember we are talking about the acrylic based CP like FlexCoat, Color Lock, Brilliance etc....the urethane based CP like Gudebrod 811 are much better I believe ,and I personally would not use anything else. The CP we are developing for ThreadMAster is of this type...it leaves a much stronger more flexable film than does the acrylic

I have always thought of the relationship between thread wraps and finish different than Tom Does. To me the thread is NOT what holds the guide in place, but neither is the finish...it's the two together that form a matrix if you will. I think of it like concrete and re-bar, one without the other is sort of useless, but the two together make a pretty darn unbreakable combo. For example, I have an unfinished rod in the shop I could walk up to right now and yank the guide out with little effort. BUT, put finish on that and tomorrow you'd have tu use a pair of pliers to get it off. Conversely you could goop a bunch of finish on a bare guide and glue it in place with no thread and yank it off pretty easily.

I stopped using CP because I simply could not find one I liked. However I hope to change all that in the next few months.

SO, my opinion; wraps with CP ARE definately weaker than wraps without, but that does not mean they are inherently weak....you just have to take pre-caution to make sure things don't go haywire. Use a locking wrap, and extend the edges well beyond the edge of the wrap. It's sort of like arguing which is weaker a house made from stone or one made from brick, one may very well be weaker than the other, but BUILT PROPERLY they are both strong enough to handle everyday punishment.

Andy Dear
Lamar Mfg.

Good points!!!! weaker/stronger? Still much speculation until there is a way to scientifically prove it. But it still comes down to, IMO, that proper use/type of CP and finish application will take care of any problems beforehand. Andy, you're still the ONLY one that has ever responded to my question by saying YES, they have had that happen.

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

I don't think there is a need for a complex scientific test...you can prove it to your self. Wrap a guide with CP and w/o CP, see which is easier to pull out with your bare hand. Or even better get a fish scale with a hook, tie some 50lb mono to the hook, and the other end to the guide ring...see which takes more force to pull the guide out of the wrap. I bet the NO CP wrap takes more force to pull it out.
Again that doesn't prove much, since both are strong enough to handle 99% of the fishing situations we encounter.

Andy