I'm sure that if any one of the builders out there had this happen to them, you also would feel compelled to tell others about it as Andy and I have. It is not a good feeling to have this happen and I just have to 'let it out' when the subject comes up. Can't stop myself from doing it; the memory of those failures is just too vivid.

I'd certainly recommend using CP only when you have to on guide wraps; if it's not necessary, just use epoxy. That's the easiest fix, no doubt about it. Try to find thread colors and compositions that don't require it. I've only had to use CP on guide wraps once in the last 15 years or better and that was just last month.

On other wraps towards the butt without guides sticking out of the epoxy, I have no problem using CP at all.

When I used the CP on that rod, I explained to the guy getting it from me what could possibly happen and asked him to return the rod to me for a re-wrap if it ever occurred. I was attempting to keep him from showing off a possible 'bad job' and also pre-warning him that the orange color he'd chosen really left me little choice in the time frame I had to build the rod in.

Putter
Williston, ND

The poor guy that started this thread was trying to get a solid white background under a decal in the butt wrap area. Boy, is he getting his moneys worth! To him my advice would be to use NCP Nylon White A, pack, pack, pack, burnish, pack and follow with two coats of CP. This will give you a good solid white background if you are using a color waterslide. One other thing you can do is paint the little section of blank white before you start.

Thread, Guides and Finish on small bore blanks with no underwraps like bass and popping. This all changes when doing big boys like tuna sticks with a lot of wrap sections to deal with. My opinion.

Wrapped with A or C Nylon thread tightly packed and burnished. Locking or Forhan wraps to finish ring end. This will keep the things in place when bumped. The locking wraps require a lot of attention when finishing and they slow a production unit down. This is the reason you do not see locking wraps on production rods. It should be a main selling point for a custom rod builder.

No CP coat. Final alignment. Apply thin first coat of LTE finish. Thin does not mean with solvent - shop warm 80 F - to the extent that the finish "soaks", it may be only filling voids but it goes somewhere, and the thread pattern shows when first coat drying. I make no attempt on the first coat to fill the "thread" outline. Applied static - remove excess and level at high speed 200 rpm - dry 4 rpm.

Second coat of finish to complete with same process above.

When it is necessary to fix a guide on a rod done in the above manner you will definitely see a section of finish that has penetrated the thread and formed a shoulder in the tunnel under the guide. I would like to think that any rod of mine that comes back for guide repair is because the ring came loose and not the guide frame.

There are definitely things that go on that most see all the time but really do not stop to think. If you have ever stripped an old production stand up production rod you can tell if the builder used CP or not very easily. Some you can easily unwind the underwraps and there will be no breaks or finish left on the blank to clean up. These were treated with CP. The ones that were not CP treated are a devil to strip and clean.

Please note that there is no comment in this reply about the "bond" of finish to the blank. I hope to talk to Ralph later in the day and do not want to start the conversation off in the wrong fashion.

Mr. Dear: On wrapping and finishing guides. Don't make much differecnce if the idiot driving the boat hits waves in the river with live wells, ice and tackle boxes bouncing up in the air an crashing down of rod tip sections. Sure glad that high priced fly rod of yours was in the case and you were seated! Forhan would not have helped that nice rod any at all! Another Warranty Job!

Gon Fishn



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2006 10:31AM by Bill Stevens.

Are you infering that you are the "idiot" driving the boat?


Andy

Bill
I would think the warmer temps would speed up drying time. Is that not what people do so a finish sets up faster - heat it ? I like the cooler temps so finishes stay wetter longer to soak in MHO.

No CP coat. Final alignment. Apply thin first coat of LTE finish. Thin does not mean with solvent -
Why not ? I have not heard any one saying any thing about a finish failing cause it was thinned.

For a real good bond, permagloss could be used as the first coat, then a final coat of finish.

What was that original question again ??

You are all making a good case for using Permagloss as the initial coating.

Stan Grace
Helena, MT
"Our best is none too good"

Bill- I'd forgotten, too!

Stan- Looks pretty good to me; still concerned with it filling the tunnels completely. I'm going to do a test wrap, coat well with PG and after it's dry, tear it apart and check for tunnel filling and make a last decision on it.

Putter
Williston, ND

It is so thin Randy, would it fill that channel ?? Let us know.

Bill Boettcher. I was trying to be very careful in the way I worded my post. I did not say that a thinner such as acetone should not be used. What I was trying to say is that a finish should be at optimum temperature to allow it to get to its proper thickness for application. When we use the typed word "heat" the new guy can conjure up anything from a blow torch to placing a bottle of finish down you shirt front. Both terms are heat but quite different. Heat to me simple means let a finish reach 70 - 80 degrees for application and torch some butt wraps from excess finish removal.

If some of the new guys read a post like this they may end up trying to mix a finish in too cold an environment. If they do and it is so viscuous that it can not be applied easily they may start pouring in the acetone to get it thinned which is a bad idea. According to Flexcoat first coats should not contain more than 6% by volume acetone. We all need to think carefully when we make posts on this type of subject to be sure what our fingers type out is what we really mean.

Gon Fishn

That is why it is wise to try as many finishes as possible to find the one that works the best for oneself.
I can't Wait to try the new Thread-master. If it is like flexcoat, yet stays clear, I know I will like it.

Also I think I am hearing that Glass Coat is going By - By ?? Or is it that Thread master will be the next big thing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2006 01:46PM by bill boettcher.

My concern with the PG and filling tunnels was because of a post ?last week? that said with so much solvent in the PG that vapors off, the tunnel isn't filled. The thread is sealed with this first coating of PG, so the final coat of 2 part epoxy finish won't penetrate and fill the rest of the tunnels. Thus my need to do my own test. I'll throw it up here when I'm done and how I coated the wrap with the PG to try and ensure a full tunnel to best of ability (and that ain't much somedays...). LOL!

Putter
Williston, ND

It seems like we're trying to make a simple procedure into some kind of rocket science mystique!! In over a year of asking the question, Andy is the ONLY person that has said that he actually had a guide pull out. We can argue forever on which is stronger but it's all immaterial since what counts is whether it's strong enough!! Obviously, size D thread is much stronger than size A but since size A is more than strong enough, we use it. The CP/no CP question will always result in a heated debate about which is stronger and nobody's mind is going to be changed (nor should it!)
Graphite/foam arbors are much stronger than masking tape, but many still use it! Titanium/SIC/Cermet guides are probably stronger than Hardaloy, Alconite, etc, but does that mean that hardaloy, etc are not strong enough? I guess that my point is that regardless of which is stronger, I have used CP on every guide that I have wrapped in 20 some years and can honestly say that I am not aware of one ever pulling out, so I take that to mean that it is strong enough and I have enough confidence in my workmanship to give a lifetime guarentee on it

.



Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2006 06:26PM by Mike Barkley.

I show people with and with-out, let them decide. I will do it either way.

Just because I am the only one who has fessed up doesn't mean I am the only one who has had it happen. Out of the millions of anglers I am sure that a lot more than I have experienced this. I know of at least a dozen other rodbuilders that have experienced the milky wrap phenomenon...well that's the pre-cursor to a guide pulling out, and it's a result of the fact that an acrylic based CP doesn't provide the level of durability because it will reform back to a liquid state unlike a wrap with straight epoxy. That doesn't mean you shouldn't use CP, you just have to be aware of the consequences and be prepared to take a small extra step or two to make sure everything is sealed well.

I think that many MANY folks make this too complicated...CP, No CP, thin this, thin that, acetone here, there, use Permagolss as the flood coat, heat it up, use it in a cold room etc...That's way too much effort to achieve what ends up being a barely negligible difference in performance and longevity and all you do in the long run is exponentially increase the chance for error. We could sit here all day and split hairs on which is stronger. I can prove to you that a wrap without CP is, but it doesn't matter, as again....they are both strong enough.

I guarantee you that's why so many folks have problems getting good results with their finish:

For all you beginners who are reading this, and think that putting finish on requires a PhD in chemistry and enginering, think again...it's VERY easy:

Wrap your guides (on single foots) with a locking wrap

Apply CP, or don't...if you do use CP, use enough to achieve total 100% penetration

Measure equal parts of your finish

Mix thoroughly

Apply to wraps in a manner that achieves complete but not excessive coverage and extend it at least 1/16" of an inch beyond the edge of the wrap. Add a little extra around the guide foot.

Rotate until completely gelled

If the wraps necesitate another coat, add another coat

You're done....go fishing

What I can't figure out is why some folks are so worked up about thinning or heating a finish to get it to penetrate? If I wrap a guide, and mix up ANY one of the finishes on the market, I can apply it to the top of the thread, and after a while it is literally weeping out of the guide foot tunnel...no thinning, no heating, nothing? Now wouldn't that say that the finish is penetrating sufficiently? Try it sometime on a guide with no CP, then shave off the guide with a razor blade, to see what is left.
Here is the other problem with Permagloss, it is literally TOO THIN. If you use that as your primer coat, to penetrate, often times it will run out of the tunnell so much, you'll never ever get the tunnell filled, so you end up with a situation like Randy described...threads sealed tunnel void of Permagloss.

Have any of you ever seen Tom K. apply finish? It's a joke it's so simple and quick, and look at his finish work, it's flat as a mirror, durable, and just lovely to look at.

Bill Boetcher...this is for you...STOP THINNING YOUR FINISH. It's not necessary, it will penetrate the threads just fine without it if you're using it in 70 degrees or above. If you go thinning ThreadMaster I will not be responsible for the outcome.


Andy Dear

Yes. I'm one of the millions. I've had a guide pull out from under a wrap and it was caused by poor finishing techniques. End Story.

Andy, AMEN! You say it so much better than I ever could!! Use the KISS method (Keep It Simple, Stupid) It ain't rocket science, no matter what anyone says!

Andy
If your finish is copied after flex coat but with out the yellowing, I know I will like it. I don't use flex coat only because of it yellowing.

It just doesn't get any simpler; wrap the guide, apply finish. Done.

Putter
Williston, ND



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2006 09:56PM by Randy Parpart (Putter).