I have thought about this a few times before... but after recieving cork rings from 2 different suppliers in the last week... both advertised as "premium flor grade" (when it should have been advertised as "lathe practice material" instead) and priced pretty high, and both sets were substandard IMO. The basswood handle post from this evening intrigued me since I'm a longtime woodworker. I wondered about certain woods for handles, but cast my thoughts aside when considering the weight of most woods as compared to cork.

I've not been a fan of the burl cork since all I have seen in person was apparently poor quality. I see some on Andy Dear's website called exotic burl that looks pretty good... so I will probably try that very soon. I understand that the burls are heavier to some degree.

Other than the eva foam, what alternatives have you guys tried and liked? Weight is a concern for me, I like the weight of cork, just can't find any good cork for a reasonable price.

Thanks for sharing any experiences,

Keith

Due to poor quality of traditional cork I prefer using burl cork in my handles, for me it's not that heavy. Much lighter than wood anyway.

You should make a handle from birch bark, I wrote some short instructions of that here some time ago, search under my name or check around page 6 atm. From bark you get a nice looking handle and it's weight is close to burl if not a tad lighter (didnt weight my handle, but will do so for the next one...)

Antti's post & photos are what got me on the road to trying basswood. Thanks, Antti. Stan

someone should design a handle out of injected faom inside a plastic,like they make bicycle helmets out of.

Bought some of Andy's burlled cork and tried it for the first time a couple of months ago, loved it. I never weight it but it does seema little more dense, but it mahines beautiful and is a very durable feeling. Not to mention the unique possiblities to rod builders in trying different combos of his cork rings in our handle builds. Highly recommended to anyone who is fed up with the quality of cork rings out there.

Steve

Depending on the wood you select the weight difference is not that dramatic. I done some with cedar and poplar that were pretty close in weight to cork, although still a bit heavier. I have also done birch and maple that were pretty heavy, but still fished pretty good. Hard to really tell the difference when the weight is in your hand, in some cases it even makes the tip of the rod feel lighter.

Guys,
If you haven't seen it we have a new pattern of Exotic Burl called "Laguna, It's almost a dead ringer for natural cork in terms of color tone. WIth traditional burl cok, the binding agent is a dark color...this is what provides the grain in burl cork. WIth the exotic material the binding agent is clear...the grain pattern is caused exclusively by the natural colors of the cork graunules. This means that the Lauguna pattern being made of natural cork granules with a clear binding agent is probably the closest thing you can get to a "PERFECT" solid cork ring. Plus you get all the GOOD properties of cork...low maintenence, superior feel, and the exotic material is infinitely more tougher and durable than a natural cork ring as well.
The drawbacks to things like Basswood or any wood are that they are somewhat high maintainence...meaning they necesitate either being stabilized or need a quality finish job to keep moisture from penetrating the wood and rotting it out. If the finished gets cracked or dinged, it must be repaired. The exception being oily woods like cocobolo,rosewood etc...
There is an australian wood called "corkwood" that is indeed a dead ringer for a piece of cork, but the weight is equivelent to that of a cement block....just really unruly!

I just received a ton of Laguna rings in 1/4" and 1/2" thickness yesterday.

Take a look at www.lamarreelseats.com


Regards,

Andy Dear
Lamar Mfg.

Andy's cork and wood, wood, more wood. Wood is very popular with rodbuilders. Look on the Photo page. Many woods are not much heavier and they can even be bored out oversise and Flexcoay arbors can be used inside. The use of split grips will also off set and extra weight, I use wood in conjunction with Andy's cork, EVA, etc. and love it!! Any extra weight would be in the butt where it's affect is negligible.



Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Ahhhhh - one of the benefits of having a booth in Charlotte..... I'll get to see Andy's wares as he unpacks!

I have used Andy's cork for trim rings, and I love it.

However, I made a 7" Western Grip from it, and did not use it because it weighed so much more than natural cork. I didn't weight it, but the difference is very noticeable. It is beautiful, but I primarily make light fly rods, and the extra weight excludes its use as a grip, IMHO.

Nothing I know of is better than cork.

David Edens

I just finished my first grip using Andy's cork. It turned out very nice. Finished it with Tru-Oil and everyone who has seen it has commented on how attractive it is. It is on an 8' 4wt and it is heavier. I'm not sure how much because I haven't weighed it. But, I'm not worried. I like the heavier weight (obviously to a point). It helps me balance the rod. I dislike a tip heavy rod a lot more than one that is light in overall weight.

David,

Try boring it out 5/8" (or more) and use a flex coat arbor in side. That will take care of any weight issue. Can also be done that way with wood!!


Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Exotic Cork is heavier...aproximately 4x heavier than natural, BUT it is denser with no voids, 100% consistent from batch to batch, more durable, cheaper and readily available. I understand the weight argument, but the plain truth is if you're concerned about rod performance, the grip has no effect on that at all. Tom Dorsey from T & T told me one time "It's not about the weight of the rod, it's about the weight of the shaft itself, and more importantly, the weight of the mid and tip section of the shaft". If were going to go the distance to eliminate weight, then nickel silver should not be considered nor should any kind of hardwood anywhere on the rod. Let's all switch to full nyon Fuji seats! I say that jokingly...well half jokingly. I have to agree with Scott and Steve about the weight...with the exotic material, yes, it is heavier, but it's not at all intrusive, and in most cases very VERY comfortable, many times even more so than cork. I just finished 2 handles for a CTS 5wt and CTS 6wt to bring to Charlotte for you guys to cast. Now the CTS is honestly one of the lightest rods around, and they feel fantastic with full Exotic Burl grips on them.

I am certainly not trying to belittle David's position, as he is a talented rod builder and an accomplished caster, but I honestly think that the discussion of "grip weight" is really overrated. Certainly there is such a thing as TOO HEAVY.
AND, if you guys only knew how terribly difficult it is becoming to acquire good cork...well let's just say that you'd all be very depressed!

Besides, if you're complaining about casting related fatigue because of rod weight, you're false casting too much anyway!

Andy

I have to disagree a bit here...I have a DC 905-3 SigV that has a handle made from pure exotic burl from Andy. It weighs a TON. Ok, not a ton, but darn close. 5.5oz for the completed rod whereas a normal cork build would put it at about 2.9oz. It's a great show piece but I don't particularly like fishing it. I use the analogy "putting sandbags in the back of a Ferrari" for using double footed snake guides on a high modulus blank, and feel that the same applies to complete burl cork handles. Ok, more like strapping a brick to your hand while casting, but y'know.

On the other hand, tastefully used for inlays, it can make a grip look great with little loss in performance. My 6101-3 SigIII has a grip with four 1/4" rings inlaid and the rod weighs 1.9oz...would probably be a 1.5oz build without. In this case, the aesthetics make it worthwhile.

A suggestion I got from this board a while ago was to bore out the exotic burl handles and fill them with a Flex Coat or regular (crap grade) cork arbor. This might well be a solution to the problem. I will let you all know about it when my new lathe gets here :) :) :) (3 days and counting!)



Scott Kinney
The Longest Cast Fly Rods
[www.thelongestcast.com]

Andy -
I think you now have exactly what I've been looking for for surf rods - a heavier (no void, more solid) "cork" grip material. Several of the folks I've built surf rods for like the look of cork but were concerned with the durability of natural cork on the butt section of a rod that was going to slide into/out of sand spikes (hopefully) under load. This material sounds to me like a great material for decorative ring inserts in EVA in lieu of thin bands of EVA or hyplaon.
Yes, I WILL find you in Charlotte.

Scott,
I understand your analogy, but it's not really a fcompletely air one because there is a big difference here between handle weight, and guide weight as one effects the performance, and the other does not. Handle weight is strictly a function of personal preference, and has zero effect on the way a rod casts, save the way it feels in the hands of the caster. Handle weight (within reason of course) has no bearing on casting distance, loop size, loop shape, leader turnover or tracking. We could argue that handle shape effects these things, but I don't believe handle weight (again within reason) does at all.
Guide weight however effects everyone of the above in a very direct way.

I went back and re-read what Tom Dorsey told me in our interview last year...he explains it better than me'

"With graphite, you have an advantage in that it’s a lighter material to begin with. People there again misunderstand why lightness is an attribute. You don’t try to make a lighter rod because it weighs less, or because it’s less tiring or because it feels lighter in your hand. It isn’t about the weight of the rod on the scale. As a matter of fact it’s not about the weight of the rod at all, because the rod also has a reelseat, which if it’s Nickel Silver is heavier than aluminum etc…But the rod shaft, the reason we are concerned about light weight in the shaft is not caster fatigue, at least not directly. Indirectly a bad taper in a rod may tire you out to cast it because you spend your time just accommodating it. The weight of the shaft…inertial weight is what’s all about. If you could talk to Gary Loomis, or Don Green or any of these guys, and I’m quite sure they’ll agree the ideal rod SHAFT would have zero weight."


My point is that handle weight is more a matter of personal preference, and certainly there are arguments for and against a heavier or lighter handle, but casting performance should not be one of those arguments. I have CTS casting rod that I swear is lighter than a feather...I mean it weighs nothing. I put a split rear grip and a 2" foregrip made from stabilized wood on it....it still feels like it weighs nothing!

Next year we are hoping to offer a line of preformed grips made from the exotic burl material, and I am going to offer the foam core as an option.


Regards,

Andy Dear

I build mainly light weight saltwater rods and have been using Andy's corks ever since I discovered them. They're great, IMO. Stan

Andy,

Glad to see you are back! I hope you had a great Christmas and got some well deserved time off to spend with family. I saw your exotic rings and think they look real good, and am planning on buying some for sure. I recieved all the back issues of rodmaker in the mail today... good timing as my internet was down all day. I got to spend a few hours reading past issues cover to cover! (Tom, you put out a great magazine, I can't wait for my subscription to kick in!!)

After reading through back issues, I know the right set up for me will include split grip, no forgrip and a bumper set up. Considering that, I see the extra weight of the exotic burl as a non issue. I'll try some other options at a later date... right now I just need to build a few replacement rods. (actually I have plenty of rods to fish with but they are bought rods and now they seem inadequate!! Thanks a lot guys!)

Andy, I will be calling you in the morning to order some exotic burl, a new mandrel and asking advice about lathes. My home made lathe worked almost perfect except that the drill chuck is not true, it wobbles (as do all 6 of them I own, but never mattered much before now!!) so my "perfect" grips are a little bit oval. ...lol

Thank you all for a good exchange of thoughts here!

Keith

I agree that the grip is a very personal thing and does not directly impact performance. I do think it impacts it indirectly. As I commented my grips tend to be heavier than "normal". One reason is the material. The other is I use full wells in a slightly larger diameter and a little longer than "normal" on light rods. The reason is my hand size and that I like a very firm grip. Niether changes because the rod is lighter and shorter. I keep the same basic grip configuration on all my rods to help balance (I really, really dislike tip heavy rods) and to not have hand fatique on a long day of casting. A tired, cramping hand does more damage to my casting than a few extra ozs of rod weight. Plus, my fishing is more about accuracy than distance and I've found that my grip configuration works best for me.

Steve,
Do you use a full wells even on small rods like 5wts? Just curious?

Andy