I've been following the conversations on the board for some time now and the statements made about test casting and adjusting guide placement for improved distance have stirred my curiosity.
I can understand guide material, size and the number of guides reducing friction
and therefore increasing distance but what real gain have you experienced by adjusting while casting ? And, how much have you actually moved the guides ? I know this is one of those 'each one is different' kinds of things but how about sharing your experience ?

If you do a pretty good job of locating the guides to begin with - you won't have to move the guides much, if at all. In most cases, the butt guide is the only one that needs tweaking.

It's sometimes helpful to test cast for distance, ease of line flow, "feel," etc., when you have a couple different set-ups that both seem pretty good, but which are totally different from each other. For example, with the New Guide Concept System as outlined in the article on the online library page here, I've often tried two similar set ups but perhaps one with smaller running guides and one with larger running guides. Or with two different sized butt guides. (The set up works well - I have yet to have to move anything, I only test to satisfy my curiousity on guide butt size or running guide size.)

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I build mostly fly rods for trout. I don't cast a rod until after it's been built. Trout fishing requires so many different casts that it would be difficult to replicate them on dry land: there is no water tension, no current(s), many different fly (and indicator) setups, etc. I build my rods so that the guides are static spaced to give the best arc using the smallest number of guides. I use single foot ceramic ring guides whenever possible, especially American Tackle's Titan guides. I always cast a rod after it's built to feel the final result, keeping in mind that most of casting for trout is within 35 ft. (including the leader) and there is always mending, reach casts, tower casts, slack line casts, etc. I fool around with tight loops and distance casting, but that's just for fun (except when I've built a rod for saltwater). IMHO distance casting is way overemphasized when testing a fly rod. I don't know any serious flyfisher that casts like that for trout.

that is good to hear!

I too build mostly fly rods for short casts as Jim also mentioned. I feel that by not test casting a rod I would be doing a great injustice to my skill as a caster or for the friends I make my rods for. I understand the different casts that I must make while fishing and there are many! What I am at a loss to figure is how a different cast is going to make the line flow out of the guides any different than a traditional cast. The force of the cast maybe different but the line is still taking the same path out of the rod. If there is no line slap on a regular cast then it is probably likely that you will never have an issue with a roll cast or a mend etc causing you any problems. At least in my experience. Also, just moving the butt guide forward or back an inch or so during test casting changes the casting characteristics of the rod very noticably. I suggest trying it, you can leave your static dist. running guides in the same place as I often do and just move the butt or use other sizes and it makes a @#$%& of difference.

You still want to set up for the best distance, whether you plan on casting far or not - good casting distance indicates good guide placement and you can always shorten up - you don't have to cast 100 if you only need to cast 25.

Obviously, you also need good stress distribution so make sure to use enough guides to provide that, even though it might reduce your casting distance by a very slight amount.

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I tried to do some test casting on a spinning rod years ago. It was very frustrating. There was so much variation from cast to cast... One cast would go 120', the next 110', the next 125', etc. I found that unless I did something completely ridiculous (e.g. first guide 10" from the reel) I could not detect major differences in distance.

Being a scientist by profession, I quickly realized that I would need to do quite a lot of casts, measuring each and averaging them together for each guide tweak- to detect real differences. It was going to take a lot of time for every rod I was to make. On top of this, it was obvious that the differences in actual casting distance would be marginal to begin with. I just couldn't (and to this day can't) justify spending as much time as it would take to do this properly.

I've sold a whole bunch of rods over the years, and not one customer has complained that the rod doesn't cast far enough...

I don't want to go too far off the subject...

I never move the stripper guide from its pre-determined position. Positioning it for line handling (reach) is more important to me than any increase in performance. If I build a custom rod for a client, I position it for her/his reach length. If it's a store rod, I have no idea who will buy it. If it's positioned for line shoot, is that with a wet line or a dry one? Is there a current tugging on the running line? I know people who can get into the backing with their casts, but don't know how to handle the line under actual fishing conditions.

That's a brave post to make, Mike, and now that you have made it, I will jump in and say that I agree with every word of what you wrote. That has definitely been my experience too. I tried, tried, and tried again, saw no difference and bagged it. Space the guides to protect the blank (St. Croix spacing table is great for this, then tweak as necessary) and put the butt guide in a reasonable position, and the rod will cast great. Variations is an angler's timing and wind conditions result in so much variation, I don't think you could ever really hope to pin down any minor gains in casting distance. This is for fly and freshwater spin rods. Maybe if you are casting a surf rod for a world record, it can make a difference, I don't know.

Distance is only one aspect of test casting. I don't build flyrods, so I have no input one way or the other on their particular setups outside of a setup having good stress distribution and attention to the reduction of weight where possible. But, I do have quite a bit of experience with setting up and testing inshore rods for trout and reds.

One other thing I do while test casting a particular setup is listen. I listen to the way the line and sometimes the reel react to the cast. That tells a lot about the way the line is moving through the guides. As Tom stated above, about the only guide I mess with during test casting is the butt guide. Move it forward or backwards or change the size of the guide to see if there is a differnce.



Regards......Doug@
TCRds

I agree with Jim and Steve when you are setting up the guide placement on a fly rod. I believe in tweaking to obtain the best static test result for running gides after you have positioned the stripper guide for the reach you desire. That along with developed casting skills will give you the ability to make the best use of your rod including casts for distance.

Stan Grace
Helena, MT
"Our best is none too good"

I concur. A rod that is set up well and can cast a long way can also cast a short distance. But a rod that can only cast a short distance will not help you when you need to reach out further. I want the rod to be capable of giving me all its got, just in case.

I also find just a matter of a few feet to a few yards difference in test casting. But I can hear the line on the way out and try to arrive at something that gives me good distance with the quietest line flow and no line slap.

This is mainly in reply to Jason's message.

Two things he mentions: the behavior of the line in distance casting and line slap. I build my rods so that they work best at shorter distances, i.e., there will be minimum sag between the guides for things like mending or extending the drift. With a distance cast, the guides can be farther apart than they need to be for short distances. The line is moving at a fast rate, so there is little slack. When it's moving slowly there is more slack, so I try to place the guides for a slow moving line. It will work for a fast line, but not vice versa. (I also prefer softer action blanks to get good rod response with little effort -- and you feel the fish better too.)

As far as line slap goes, that is a major reason that I use single-foot ceramic guides instead of snakes. Even with single foot wire guides, the line sits too close to the blank to avoid slap. Single-foot ceramics hold the line a little farther away, and they really reduce friction compared to wire guides.

Jim

I'm going to disagree with the idea that little is gained by adjusting guides. I routinely adjust guides, and have found that even fairly small changes can make a difference in the way a rod casts and feels.

I go through a fairly short iterative process that I have developed by trial and error.

I never try to optimize for maximum distance, because I never fish at maximum distance. Nor do I think maxium distance is a useful parameter unless you are a competitive caster. For those rods, a different philosophy applies.

I mark a line at 50 ft, and measure how much line I can shoot past this mark on both a single haul and double haul cast. I average 5 casts or so with each.

In general, I have not found that there is a huge difference with guide placement towards the butt end of the rod. However, the relationship between the stripper, which I set for my arm length and the next guide up does tend to have a difference on "shootability". I therefore spend a little time moving this guide around, changing the spacing by 1/2in in either direction, until I have an optimum.

From there, I work in the 5 guides starting at the tip, starting with a static spacing that looks right, and then moving each fore and aft about 1/4-1/2 in or so, and continuing the test casting. If there is no difference, I'll just leave the guide at the initial static spacing. I have found that the position of the first few guides can sometimes give a difference of around 10% in amount of line shot past 50ft. In addition, there can be some difference in rod damping depending on where the guides are.

There is certainly no huge difference in an optimized rod versus one that isn't. But at the same time, if you are truly building a customized rod, spending some time optimizing its performance is part and parcel of the process in my opinion.

Let me give an example. In the Dan Craft SigV 9ft 5 wt, you can get a perfectly good looking static spacing with the first guide at around 4.25 in from the tip. However, my optimized rod has this guide around 5in from the tip. I think there is a noticeable difference in the way the rod feels and casts this way.

Mark Li

Thank you all for sharing your experience. I can tell there are going to be some all nighters at Charlotte. I hope some of the rooms have big round tables.
Season's best to All !

It is a shame that Tom can not keep the Show open all night!!!!! I could make a pretty penny selling coffee - I will bet that more people would spend the night there than in the hotel!

Gon Fishn

On casting and spinning rods, I simply get a good static spacing near the tip, then mess with the butt guides a little. I try to make sure that my test casting casts the typical bait "quite a ways." Basically, I just eyeball the distance, and when I see some marked improvement, I stick with that. I could spend quite a bit more time at the test casting, but my experience has been that the extra time involved in lots and lots of test casting just takes longer to get me to the same spacing.

Now on fly rods--even short lightweight fly rods--I work quite hard to optimize my casting distance. I want the line to absolutely fly through the guides, and cast further than anyone would ever have to with a 7'6" 3wt. I don't do this because I'll ever need to cast that far with such a small rod. Rather, I want that line to fly through the guides, so that I (or the customer) spends less time with the fly in the air, and more time with the fly on the water. In other words, a fly rod that casts further will have to be cast lest often. Fewer casts in a day equals less arm fatigue. Less arm fatigue equals a happier day on the water.