I am building a surf rod on a Breakaway 1387 blank. I'm using the Bumper Wrap layout to make this a Baitcaster. I got some advice from board members on guide sizes.
25; 20; 16;16;12;12;12; 12 Top and a 12 Bumper Guide. I have already taped them up and tested the stress distribution. Everything seemed excellent and although Ihave not cast it I can tell it is a great layout. I oriented the top section of the two piece blank on its straightest axis with the baelly down and ends up. The butt section is so firm I had to test for spine and oriented it with the outside of the curve on the 0 axis (facing up). Then I glued the top in place with Flex Coat 2 part 15 minute epoxy.

Then, I decided to read Tom K's fine article on Surf Rods in RodMaker Vol.7 Issue #1. I was a stunned to see Tom's suggestion that the smallest guide on a surf rod should be #16! The logic is that this this is the smallest size that will cleanly pass any knots used to attach a shock leader to the main line. I rely upon shock leaders for both bait and plugs especially when the main line is braid.

I am not new to surf fishing, although this is my first casting rod. I have been using a G.Loomis 1266S with a Van Staal VS200 for years. I must say that I can feel the connection knot clip the #12 top during each cast. I will add that I have never had a failure of my connecting knots..but I have also never hooked up a trophy Striper. I would have thought the larger and heavier #16 guides and top would be more detrimental to rod performance and thus be a worse problem than the knot hitting the top. I am not saying I disagree with Tom, just that I am surprised by his informed opinion.

My quandry now is whether it's worth the hassle of removing the #12 top (either with a hot water bath or cutting it off and losing 3/4" of rod length). Then I could easily return all the #12's for #16's
and conform to Tom's method.

Perhaps someone can suggest an easy to tie knot which is very small for attaching 30# Power Pro to a 50# or greater Mono or Flourocarbon Leader. If the knot is small enough it might pass cleanly. I have been using two Trilene knots for this up to now. Much of my surf fishing is at night so my knots have to be easy. I try to minimize the use of light.

Sorry for the lengthy post. Just wanted to be very clear.

Thanks for the suggestions.
Dave

I build and fish alot of surf rods that are fished on the Outer Banks. I have used 12's before and haven't had any trouble, but I've had other rods that I had problems with shock knots hitting. I don't use any braid just mono to mono shock and tie a bimini in the main line attach to shock with an albright. I would tape the guides on and test cast with what you've go before I would cut the tip off and return guides you may be ok.

Ed Kindervater
Classic Custom Rods

The only rod's I'll put 16's on are true heavers where 20# main line and 50# shock line is used. I usually still use 12's for these, but some people still prefer 16's. For knots, first double your main line with a bimini twist, braided loop, or triple surgeons, then connect the loop to your shock leader with a no-name or double uni.

I've built three surf rods only one has 16's, its 12 ft rated 4-10 OZ the other two are 11'6" 3-6 have 12's I throw mainly Bait

That No-Name know has detailed instructions in the articles page on stripersonline.com, as the Alberto Knot. I used to use this knot, as it was extremely easy to tie & very small - but for whatever rason the more I tie it, the worse I got at it. I would try it out, as a lot of people like this knot and have no problems with it, including Crazy Alberto who surf fishes for Stripers more than anyone.

If you look at the tips, a size 12 tip will have a smaller opening than a size 12 guide. I've been going one size higher on tips on rods where knots have to pass through because of this.

I am building a 13', 20# -- 40#, 6 oz. rod. I used 16s for the last three, because that was the smallest top I could find to fit the rod. I test-casted it the other day on a local football field: 61 yds. I thought that was pretty good.

JC

I will definitely test cast the rod before making any changes. I am just waiting for a break in this cold weather. I found instructions for the knots you mentioned and will start practicing them tonight. I think the Alberto or the No Name with or without a Bimini Twist will provide a solid connection and eliminate pass freely through the #12 guides. Once again the Forum members have come through with great advice and very quickly. Now if the Stripers would just show up when I have finished this rod. Thanks Fella's.
Dave

ALL my surf rods (and thats the only kind of fishing I do) have 12's at the top.
Call me crazy but.... I use 50lb test braid and NO shock leader- so no knots to pass through the guides.
I tie my hook to a 15-20" -60lb flouro leader, then join the braid and flouro with a 90lb B swivel.
A heavy duty fishfinder to hold the weight slides on the braid.
Unless your throwing more than 8 n bait , with this set up you just don't need the shock leader.
I've only had one break off in two years fishing this way.
Maybe I'm just ghetto but NONE of the guys I go fishing with use shock leaders (even when pluggin' )!
HOWEVER....I have caught my share of stripers up to 42 lbs !

Eric,
Your approach makes a lot of sense. I just wonder how much casting distance I'd lose by switching from 30# Braid to 50#. I certainly like the simplicity of connections. What knots do you use to connect the braid to the ring? I thought the longer shock leader was needed to add flexibility and resistance to abrasion where the line would be most stressed. But if the 50# can handle all that and still cast well then I am inclined spool up with it and give it a whirl.
Thanks.

Dave, I use the improved clinch knot & the palomar- both pretty easy to tie.
I don't think you'll notice much loss (if any) in casting distance with the heaver line?!
WARNING: I used to use Power Pro- but that seemed to break off (might have had a bad batch) with almost every other cast- no matter
how I fished. Someone recommended I switch to Stren super braid (which I did-WOW great stuff) - PROBLEMS SOLVED!
I have a few friends (not me yet) ,who mostly outcast EVERYone on the beach with this same setup.

Be CAREFUL using braid as a shock leader. Braid is not very abrasion resistant at all. It WILL crack off after a few casts if using a fish finder rig. Also, if you are landing a large fish in the surf, DO NOT grab the braided line! You WILL get a nasty cut - or worse.

Clyde.....I must make a couple of hundred casts per weekend and NEVER had the braid (stren) crack off with my fish finder!
I HAVE seen the braid cut through a plastic fish finder though..... They are so cheap ,I buy them in bulk,
use them one trip out, then discard them.