Ceramic guides seem to be very expensive. Are there other guides that are cheaper and wear well?

Take a look at Fuji's Alconite.

- Sam

I second Fuji Alconite. Ralph

If at first you don't succeed, go fishing, then try, try again.

Even the Forecast H-ring guides or PacBay Hialoy are excellent for smoothness and line wear compared to wire guides and they only cost 60 cents a piece or so. I prefer alconites to the ones mentioned because they sit lower to the blank, but the H-ring and Hialoy are a good bit cheaper and still excellent guides, especially if you are used to wire.

You can get ceramic guides for a buck or so. Alconites are the best bargain out there and couldn't be called expensive by any stretch of the imagination.I really hate to say this, but if you really want cheap, just buy a rod at Wally World

I think if we had any idea how precisely engineered the average rod building component was, and how many $million$ the manufacturers had invested in the machinery, the R&D, and the work force, that we would be surprised that they were not charging twice as much money as we are paying now in the USA. I imagine that if the profit margins got any lower, they simply could not afford to stay in business, ... and THEN where would WE all be??? ... That's right, up schlitz creek without a paddle, ... or cannibalizing factory rods to make repairs.

Not one of us could make our own ceramic ring guide, or easily make the least complicated graphite rod blank. I suspect that If we, as custom rod builders ("assemblers"), operated on the same profit margin as the component & blank manufacturers, we would not be "making" $100 per rod, but about $5-20 per rod (for 5+ hours of involvement). That's a labor of love, not a sound business enterprise.

Thank God & the Rod-Component Industry for how good we have it.
IMO, Cliff Hall, Gainesville, FL-USA+++

Nicely said Cliff,
There are some very expensive components out there (some are worth the $ and some are not) but for the most part I think
the rod building mfr's. try very hard to keep there products very affordable for us builders and still provide a high quality product.

My 2 cents

Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..

Bruce A. Tomaselli wrote: "Ceramic guides seem to be very expensive. Are there other guides that are cheaper and wear well?" -BAT.

In the interest of balance and fairness to your inquiry, did you mean to say that CER-MET or SILICON CARBIDE (SIC) guides were "very expensive"?

If THAT is what you meant, then I doubt you will get much argument to that here at RBO. Dang right that SIC or Cer-Met or even the SIN (Silicon Nitride) guides are expensive. Just like roller guides are expensive or heavy duty turbo style guides. But there are less expensive alternatives

Yes, these SIC, SIN and CER-MET all are CERAMIC Guides. But ALL of the hard-ring, NON-METALLIC Line Guides today are made of CERAMIC material. A ceramic material is a metal oxide powder that has been fused by heat and / or pressure into a glass-like solid. This allows a hard crystalline structure to be formed and a smooth, low-friction surface to be polished.

Technically, ALL of the line guides made from the various Aluminum Oxides: the Hardloys, the Hialoys, & the Alconites (used for the New Guide Concept guides); they ALL belong in the category of ring guide material called "CERAMIC GUIDES". Maybe that's how we couldn't seem to understand your question. (Most of the guide FRAMES are made of a stainless steel, painted or otherwise.)

And any of these less expensive varieties of Aluminum Oxide guide rings are virtually totally corrosion-proof, and more abrasion resistant than the finest chrome over brass, and have a much lower coefficient of friction than, say, tungsten carbide rings. The two main grading criteria, Vickers Hardness (resistance to abrasion) and the Coefficient of Friction (resistance to friction), make it clear that any of the Aluminum Oxide (ALOX) varieties is just fine for almost any rod-building application. ...

See the Addendum below in the next Reply for some Mohr's and Vicker's Hardness values for various ring materials and comments on the abrasion resistance of ALOX.

The SIC, SIN and sinfully expensive golden (literally) Cer-Met guide rings are usually -over-kill- , or at least not usually absolutely necessary. They (SIC, SIN, C-M) and the Zirconia / Holographic are definitely harder, slicker and more shock-resistant than the ALOX versions. But only you can decide if your application warrants the extra expense, or needs that extra assurance of quality or performance.

IMO, -Cliff Hall, Gainesville, FL-USA+++



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/2005 01:45AM by Cliff Hall.

As far as the guides' ring material is concerned: With respect to the use of super braid line, even the Hardloy aluminum oxide ceramic guides rings are well able to withstand the abrasion from the line itself and from the sand particles (mostly silicon dioxide) that imbed in the braid. Some hardness comparisons:

MOHR HARDNESS SCALE (sometimes spelled "Moh's"):

Zircon, cubic - 7.5
Aluminum Oxide - 8.0
Silicon Carbide - 9.0

Silica Sand - 5.0
Window Glass - 5.5
Mineral Sand - 5.0-7.0
Steel Knives - 6.5-7.0 maximum
Steel Files - 6.5-7.0 maximum

MOHR's is a relative scale, with arbitrary gradations.
In terms of absolute hardness (2):
# 7 - 100 Quartz
# 8 - 200 Topaz
# 9 - 400 Corundum
#10 - 1600 Diamond

From a Google Search using the term "MOHR HARDNESS SCALE".
(1). Robinson, John. "What Lies Beneath - Surface Preparation, The Key to Coating Performance". Corrosion Management (May 2003), pp. 16-22. An industrial journal; article describes international ISO-8502 protocol for painting structural steel. [www.corp.indgalv.com.au]
(2). [mineral.galleries.com]


VICKER'S HARDNESS SCALE: (courtesy of Bob Crook & Spencer Phipps) [www.batsonenterprises.com]

Stainless Steel (SS): 200
Chrome: 800-1000
Aluminum Oxide: 1200-1400
Alconite: 1700
NANOLITE: 1800 (TITAN) per Joe Meehan, American Tackle
Zirconia: 1800-2000
SiC: 2200- 2400



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/2005 04:09AM by Cliff Hall.

Ceramic guides: Some quotes from the voices of experience at RBO:

Re: Guides and Super Lines?? Tom Kirkman 01-24-05 05:11PM
No quality ceramic guide will be harmed by the use of "super lines." Sometime for kicks, and if you have a file to destroy, try filing a groove into an Alconite or even a Hardloy ring. Do be advised, however, that you will permanently ruin your file, regardless of it's quality and Rockwell hardness.

Re: Guides and Super Lines?? Lou Reyna 01-24-05 05:26PM
I have a rod with hardloy guides in my shop right now that has seen extensive use of "superlines" with no ill effects. The owner switched from mono to braided line on this rod some years ago. He's had fish on that pull a significant amount of line off the reel while the rod is under load. The guides have not grooved. The rod's in the shop to have a guide replaced that was cracked when the rod / reel combo was dropped on the asphalt. Lou Reyna

Re: Guides and Super Lines?? Mike Barkley 01-24-05 05:42PM
In my area (Lake Erie) the majority of (including charters) trollers use braided / superlines. They also use mostly below $50 rods and I get more than my share of guide replacements (abuse, stepped on, etc.) I'm 65 and I can honestly say that I have never seen a grooved ring. One friend of mine, a charter captain is booked over a 150 trips a year and trolls for walleye and steelhead (steelies will run strong and long), uses cheap rods with cheap guides and Fireline on all of them. I do all of his rod work. Have never seen a grooved guide. Not saying it doesn't happen, but I've yet to see it. Mike Barkley

Mike and All! I'm new and therefore did not realize that most guides are made of ceramics. For the record, I am all for manufacturers making money. My idea of building rods is to build a quality rod for less money than the manufacturers. I don't want the cheapest components nor do I want the most expensive. I want what I can afford.

If you want color for the looks, you will pay for it.